Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

If the UN is saying that it is an unparalleled loss of civilian life in modern times then they must have a very short memory.

They are in Yemen where the civilian death toll is far higher.

They are in Ethiopia where the civilian death toll was far higher.

They are in Sudan where the civilian death toll is far higher.

They weren't in Rwanda, where the civilian death toll was over three quarters of a million. Their incompetence in the management of the aftermath of that actual attempted genocide led in no small part to the Congolese war which killed over 5 million people.

Is the UN really saying that? Seriously? Unparalleled in modern times. Are they taking the piss?

The Iranian Army is well trained, well equipped and actually ruthless. As are many others around the world. The Indonesian army, the one that has actually carried out a genocide and is actively attempting to carry out another one as we speak, is also well trained, well equipped and is actually ruthless. Are they all Nazis as well?

With all due respect, I did not enact godwins law. You did. It was you not I brought nazi into this conversation. When I mentioned why people might feel there is a correlation I said Jewish history. I didn’t say nazi. You’re trying to put a square peg into a round hole. I have been very clear as to why I believe there are legitimate questions. Ones which need answering. I imagine Israel feel that way too to see what failed security wise on the 7th and what can be done to ensure it will never happen again.

You mentioned people who are picking apart what Israel is doing and not what other countries are doing is anti semite. This is a thread about Hamas/Palestine and Israel. It’s a discussion forum. When posters mentioned comparisons to IRA very early on in the thread they were lambasted for not comparing like with like. There is a long history there. Its foolish for the point of discussion to pretend there’s not.

Are you denying there are posts on the thread who compared Jews to Nazis? I didn't bring it into the conversation. I'm pointing out how it is anti-semitic. You are the one who jumped in challenging it, creating the impression you think it is a valid comparison to deploy.

It is a thread about Hamas\Palestine and Israel, but when hatred is directed at Israel it is entirely valid to question why it is directed at Israel when similar conduct elsewhere does not generate such hate. Or when countries actually engaged in worse conduct start pontificating about the conflict, it is entirely valid to point it out. It is not whataboutery. There is something about the level of hate and scrutiny of Israel that requires explanation and that can only be done with reference to their history and other conflicts.

Do you not follow the news? Well reported today.

Is that official enough for you? Sufficient evidence?

I get that if references are made to another separate conflict that that can be referred to as whataboutery but even referring to civilian casualties on both sides seems to be called whataboutery by the diehard supporters of Israel's action since the attack. I dont think they want to read about kids being blown to pieces.

I think it is right to call out Hamas supporters but to have every post talking about antisemitism is a bit obsessive.

Yemen, Sudan, Ethiopia are all conflicts (and there are more) that have grater death tolls but the death toll in Gaza has been reached in a matter of weeks. That is the significant part here.

If you can't grasp that or think the UN would be making misleading statements to the point that they were 'taking the piss' then, I don't know what to tell you.

For the love of God, don't be so obtuse.

We were told that 40 babies were beheaded, then that it couldn't be confirmed, then that maybe they hadn't been beheaded, but had died, then that the number was smaller. That was simply my point, that there was ambiguity around the events.

Any outrage you feel about the deaths of Israeli babies, should be magnified with respect to the deaths on the Palestinian side given the vastly greater numbers.

That's it. This continued justification of Israels actions because of X number of lives tragically taken deserves to be questioned given the (X times Y) numbers of lives tragically taken on the Palestinian side.

The refusal to see this is what infuriates a lot of observers (including Hickey I imagine) because it implies that some lives are more valuable than others.

Google Definition

He mightn't be your cup of tea, but what he does fits the literal textbook definition of the word.

The number that you say was "not exactly 40" is zero.

It would however be a pretty conservative estimate to say that more than 40 innocent Palestinian babies have been beheaded by Israeli bombs, given that most Palestinian children have resorted to writing their names on their limbs for identification purposes because having their bodies ripped apart by the IDF is so commonplace.

They, and me, are trying to point out that if dead babies repulses you, the vastly greater number of dead babies on the Palestinian side should mean that at the very least you acknowledging that there is greater loss to that community.

I want to say nobody is downplaying what Hamas is doing but some pedant will say "Oh but you said someone probably did downplay it maybe possibly 5 weeks ago and therefore everything you say is a lie" so let me try to put it this way. The death of any baby/child/innocent at any time is a tragedy, that the deaths often come about at the hands of others is horrific, but pointing out that the details of the attack has changed repeatedly does not equate to supporting or downplaying what Hamas did.

I know that on this thread, I was told by a very pro-Israel poster that the manner of the childrens death was significant as to how Israel responded, so then, when it turns out that what was said to have occurred had not occurred in the manner in which it was said, does it not follow through that the response of Israel can therefore be questioned? All without saying that someone is supporting or downplaying Hamas?

And this isn't a pissing contest to see which community suffered more, those of us calling for a ceasefire are motivated in trying to advocate so that other children (and adults) don't die or have their lives destroyed. It's a messed up world when calling for peace has people accusing you of supporting terrorism.

Merely blaming Israel for the dead babies in Gaza is downplaying what Hamas is doing. Israel certainly have some culpability but the overwhelming blame lies with Hamas.

You seem to have lost track of the discussion.

The point is that when they don't condemn Hamas for atrocities, when they don't ask Hamas to stop attacking Israel from civilian sites or ask Hamas to release the hostages - but only ever ask questions about Israel's conduct they out themselves as terrorist apologists and Hamas supporters and defenders. Sure they can carry on like that, and when they do so they will correctly be called out as such. They can have that opinion and they can be right labelled terrorist apologists. Because that is what they are.

Nope. Read exactly what was posted, and read what was asked. They are not the same thing. Atrocity and killing are not the same thing. Murder and killing are not the same thing.

The vague phrasing "in which civilians were killed" - this doesn't actually assign any culpability to Hamas for the deaths of the civilians. It doesn't assign any culpability to Hamas with regard to deliberately targeting and murdering civilians.

So - your own advice - go back and read the posts. Don't skip over them.

You’re entitled to that view. I obviously as I asked didn’t read it into it the same way.

Same way I’d appreciate you answering this. I don’t think I’ve seen you, and correct me if I’m wrong, condemn Israel for any of their wrongdoings before or after Oct 7th.

Well, he's not on TV or radio or writing for a national newspaper, therefore there's no obligation on him to show 'balance' or to satirise both parties to the conflict.

In fact, I don't think RTE or the BBC would even allow any satirist to produce satirical content about what's happening in Israel / Gaza at the moment. It would be considered too sensitive a topic for mainstream TV.