Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Hopefully water and aid will be the priority as there is a massive problem with santitation, clean water, medical supplies and food. Just because the bombing may stop for a while doesn't negate the effects of a full on siege.

A pause in the fighting and a release of hostages/prisoners can only be a good thing. However I am a bit confused. From a Strategical point of view what is the benefit to Hamas for a hostage release? In return all they get is a "pause" to the bombardment of Gaza. After 4 or 5 days or whatever it'll just resume and they'll have even less leverage to stop it continuing into perpetuity. In fact the IDF and Israeli Politicians have stressed that it will continue. The biggest brake on the IDF right now are the protests by the families of the hostages. Presumably that'll be reduced when lots of the hostages are released.

I know that the Israelis will be releasing Palestinian prisoners as part of the deal but that doesn't really seem like it's worth it either from the point of view of Hamas (especially if those prisoners just end up in Gaza under future bombardment).

You said that when America helps others it is an act of self interest.

I agree on your first point. The question is why are so many aware of that and not of other more serious oppression?

The reason Israel gets the support it does is because the region is strategically important and the other major players in the region are worse than it. Is Israel better or worse than Saudi, Iran or Syria? What about Libya or Egypt? It's a pretty poxy choice should the democratic would surrender the region to Russia and China?

On your last point, it's aa good question. I do discuss those topics on other forums.

Not at all, I also have an interest in the destabilising effect China has in Asia, currently with the ongoing conflicts they are using as a proxy war in Myanmar. I appreciate your recognition of what is happening in the West Bank and it clearly is textbook ethnic cleansing. I hope you can see that having a ceasfire and reduction in hostilities in Gaza is one step in preventing ethnic cleansing there. This is what most people want, this is why people disagree with how western nations have handled things since October 7th.

There should have been pressure applied immediately to measure Israels response but instead many world leaders went with the "Israel has the right to self defence" line knowing what was happening in the West Bank and that it was clear as day that the response was going to be extremely heavy handed. Now we find ourselves with a massive humanitarian crisis that despite ceasefires shows no signs of improving, pandoras box has been opened and the dangerous demagogues like Ben Gvir have been emboldened. The longer the current Israeli government can maintain a state of emergency the longer they stay in power, and those in power at the minute are extremely dangerous to not only the Palestinians but the region as a whole.

What is incomplete about the current narrative? I don't agree with the comparison with "14 year old socialists" and "bombastic blowhards". Do 14 year olds not have a valid opinion to offer? They do inherit the shithole we leave them, after all.

Yeah agreed, all it'll take is one person to do something stupid and it'll be enough justification to resume destruction.

Ah, that old nutshell.

The idea that the Iraq war was fought for Oil is the biggest Myth.

Why would the US spend $1 Trillion on a war, for oil contracts they don't even have today?

At the same time Oil Shale gas exploded making the US a net energy EXPORTER. Coupled with the Biden administration's spending $20 Billion on a Green New Deal.

The ideas you expose are cute and make good chat down the pub, but they lack serious credibility given any degree of critical assessment.

So, I'll ask again, how is the US going to 'gain' if Gaza manages to make use of its Gas extrapolation potential?

The same Shell who is run by Wael Sawan, who was born in Lebanon? That won't sit well with the conspiracy theorists.

It's not so much who has the contracts, it's who controls the supply and more importantly the currency it is traded in. If the US Dollars was not the reserve currency for the majority of oil transactions it would have a big impact on the US economy. There were suggestions Saddam was going against US Interests. As we have seen in other places over the years,if you go against US geo political Interests the risk was regime change whether directly or through proxies

With this in mind what ever the reason for the war, it wasn't likely the primary reason cited by apologists for the war.

That's silly.

Would you protest against the Irish government today if they were sending aid, military or otherwise operational, to Hamas? Or would doing so make you a bigoted anti-muslim? Because you haven't protested equally about all the other unconnected and unrelated events that have occurred in the last 10 years?

People in the West always protest when countries in the West unconditionally prop up States and governments that commit atrocities.

Again, more conspiracy theory nonsense.

Nowhere did I paint anyone who is critical as being anti-semitic.

I listed specific behaviour that is anti-semitic, and noted anti-semitism as being one major factor in the criticism that Israel gets relative to other states.

So "Bit of a disingenous response"? Sums up your post perfectly.

They don't protest on anywhere near the same scale, as you are well aware. It is always Israel that gets it.

If the Irish government was sending aid to Hamas like regimes around the world, carrying out Hamas like actions, and one particular regime gets 10 times the protests of another - that warrants examination.

The why of that, is what was being discussed and the point you completely missed in your rush to labelling things "that's silly".

No - he was a Holocaust survivor as a child. Mate claiming to be one seems a pace with him being a fringe headbanger.

It's perfectly okay for Holocaust survivors to be anti-Israel. It's not as o.k. to claim to be one when you were a baby then and then use that claim for furtherance of your politics.

Is it really markodaly? You might not like to accept it given your own political views , but America engaging in regime change is factual- the CIA admit in their own declassified files down through the years.