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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Aren't we too quick to make excuses and give up? Adding a proper lighting and CCTV could improve a confidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Journey times on Intercity journeys are key, and frankly the main method of improving them is to remove the stops around Dublin and replace them with the semi-fast feeder services.

    That's what happens at Portlaoise and at Drogheda. People change on/off for intermediate stations between there and Dublin, and it works.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Economics101


    On most Cork-Dublin trains you can change at Portlaoise (usually last intermediate stop) into an all-stations Portlaoise to Heuston train. Something similar works for Cork bound trains: you can get a stopping train at (say) Hazlehatch and make the connection at Portlaoise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They have just got several million Euro from the EU to examine the feasibility of expanding the tracks along the Northern Line, so yes they are examining it, but I very much doubt that they would be considering demolishing any houses around Kilbarrack.

    As I've pointed out, the ability to overtake a stopping DART between Clontarf Road and Raheny is the key element along that section, they can revert to two tracks and then expand again from Howth Junction northward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Very short sections of multiple track like Clontarf-Raheny rely on everything running to time. Any delay will knock on to other services very easily.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    You only need to overtake one train on that section - the section from Clontarf Road to Raheny isn't exactly "very short".



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Yeah, but when Dart+West is finished, including 4-tracking between Heuston and HH, the Portloaise commuter trains won't serve every stop. So people will most likely have to change mode 2 or 3 times, from a bus to a dart to a commuter train, just to get to an intercity. Or travel from the suburbs into the city, only to travel back out again.

    Speed is key, but that will be achieved with faster line speeds, removal of crossings, passing loops and electrification. Adding a stop on the outskirts of Dublin supports a proper connected network, which offers enormous choice and convenience for passengers.

    The city transport network has been built with a total focus on radial routes through the centre of the city, a mistake which is being undone through Bus Connects. We shouldn't make the same mistake while building a proper intercity network that is supposed to encourage people out of cars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Yes, I know that, but if the DART is 3 minutes late (not unknown!) the overtaking Enterprise will be held up somewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    So then the Enterprise is three mins late and then recovers it once it overtakes the DART.

    Delays can happen anywhere let’s be honest.

    That’s what a pathing allowance is for in rail schedules.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yep a 3 minute delay on a two hour intercity journey would be pretty much irrelevant. Specially as people tend to take intercity infrequently, once a month, maybe once a week if a student heading home for the weekend. Being a few minutes late on a 2 hour journey you take once a month really isn’t a big deal.

    Being a few minutes late on a shorter commute journey you take every day to work is a much bigger deal.

    Frankly Intercity just isn’t that important, it doesn’t carry anywhere near the same number of passengers as commuter/dart. The public simply isn’t crying out for big improvements in Intercity in the way they are for commuting to work. It just isn’t a big deal and most people are pretty happy driving between cities and that is just the truth.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we shouldn’t improve intercity, but folks need to be realistic, any improvements need to be affordable. There is no way that the passenger numbers of Intercity are going to justify very expensive tunnels, it just won’t pass a CBA. Quad tracking is more realistic, but if it might need to make some compromises to avoid some sections of very expensive CPO, then that might just need to happen, at least for now.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The delay of a Dart by three minutes that delays an Enterprise. That happens now, but with the opportunities to overtake gives it the opportunities to catch up - an opportunity that does not exist at present.

    Rationalise the time table to take advantage of this extra track and the on-time performance will improve.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    A while back, someone posted an update on the oral hearings on the Dart+ West project, and I believe that part of that post (I actually can't remember it fully, and can't find it anywhere) was saying that the project managers didn't cover themselves in glory related to a submission on the stables, and could only give weak answers on it.

    It looks like ABP took notice, and asked them to update the Natura Impact Statement, on both the stable and on the impact on Cormorants. Both answers are basically "it's not or problem or already dealt with", but it's open for submissions until the start of December. Probably won't delay the project at all.




  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭specialbyte


    God that really is a 69 page report of dotting i's and crossing t's.

    They say:

    • Since they prepared their environmental reports in July 2022, the Minister has designated the North-West Irish Sea cSPA (special protection area) so they need to say they could affect it - but don't
    • Cormorant birds, which nest on cliffs on places like Ireland's eye, and forage for food by diving into the sea, could in theory fly over the project area and collide with the over head line equipment (OHLE) - the electricity wires. Then there's about 5 more pages only for them to state that this is also potentially a risk for Brent Geese, which they have already planned for with mitigation measures to make the wires more visible to birds.
    • There's a response to an unfounded public consultation claim that Brent Geese forage on the Ashtown Stables lands. Even though the geese are well known to use Martin Savage park 200m away as it is better more secure feeding grounds. The planned project only impacts 3% of the Ashtown Stable lands.
    • Finally there's about 50 pages where they examine every major plan or major planning application in the Dublin area to consider if those projects in combination with DART+ West would cause significant environmental impacts. None do.

    What an absolute waste of paper. It's a much bigger waste of time. ABP had to write to Irish Rail to ask for this pointless information. IR had to prepare this document. Then it needs to go on public display for 4 weeks. Something that IR messed up the public notice for the first time requiring it to be re-put on public display for another 4 weeks. All the while ABP can't make significant progress on examining the application.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Welcome to the planning process where the applications are prepared for lawyers and judges rather than planners. This is why things take so long.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Totally agree, a complete waste of time. Just on the publishing error, I don't think it really was an error, I think they're saying that the publishing error was the fact that it wasn't included in the first place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    looks like the the Coastal South plan is going to be at whole year late - can they blame that on ABP?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,401 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'd forget about this tbh. NTA (the funding authority) have told Irish Rail they want it postponed for some indefinite period and are looking at splitting it into 2 projects, one is capacity enhancement between Bray and Greystones and the other is the D4 level crossings closure which is on the never-never. Of course the proposed service levels aren't achievable with the D4 level crossings open but the NTA has indicated that they don't want the fight right now. Maybe after the Maynooth line crossings are closed they'll grow a pair but right now it's not on the cards. This would be the 3rd attempt at closing them but the residents of the area are pretty powerful and it always ends up being canned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    They might be better off just upping frequency on the line and increasing the length the LC closures over time. That will attract more people to use DART (both by making it more attractive and making driving less attractive). BusConnects and eventually Metrolink will also bring more people to appreciate public transport. No need for a battle on full closures for now.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The LC at Merrion Gates had a proposal to close it with a route through the Our Lady Queen of Peace church car park from Strand Road and Merrion Road, but it included aspects that offended the IT readers affected by related developments - so NIMBY ruled.

    If that opened, then perhaps Sydney Parade one could close. That leaves Sandymount, Serpentine Ave, and Lansdowne Road. Serpentine Ave could be dealt with by raising the line by a few metres and the road lowered by something similar. Lansdowne Rd should have been part of the rebuild of the stadium. If Serpentine Ave and Merrion Gates were done, the others can be closed for longer times, but perhaps the closing times could be trimmed - the gates close 2 or 3 minutes before the train arrives.

    .



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They are pretty much at maximum line capacity as it is during the peak hour with 7 northbound and 9 southbound in an hour during the morning peak (signalling and crossing constraints applying).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Trim the closing times and we probably have more railway incursions than we already do (it seems like we have one every other week; and a record 3 in one day not too long ago)



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Once again, this is an enforcement issue. If you drive into a level crossing, you should not be driving, so you should lose your license. When it's reported that people are regularly losing their license because of stupidly running into the gates, then there'll be a dramatic decrease in strikes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭highdef


    Totally agree. If a driver is unable to control his/her vehicle at the most basic level, licence revoking should be implemented. Drivers get away with far too many driving offences - traffic light breaking, not stopping at stop lines, dangerous overtaking, driving with no headlights on, driving with fog lights on, driving with fog lights on but headlights off, one/multiple light bulb failures - the list is virtually endless.

    Stricter enforcement of the rules of the road should result in drivers copping on quickly that breaking those rules will result in them not being licensed to hold a licence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    If we had a complete 100% assurance that the gates would always close and remain in a safe condition you could massively reduce the down time

    i.e. drop gates, gates down, ~20 seconds train passes full speed, assumes gates work 100% every time

    Current state is drop gates, gates down, give train green signal, train crawls through. The model is assume the gates will fail



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The model is putting safety first as does the entire rule book that governs railway operations.

    Signal spacing and train speeds dictate when the gates come down.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Actually, I think it is train failing to stop before gates is the issue. North bound trains get 3 min at Sydney Parade, but South bound trains get 2 min for this reason - or so I have been told.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The current design assume the gates are compromised until a human visual checks and only then is the signal cleared, that signal will have to be ~200m back from the gates and of course the train can't be simply shown a red signal it has to be shown a yellow one first so that is another +800m at least back up the line

    The new ETCS L1 kit going in will give the driver a distance to go/braking curve as a function of that train types performance, so for DART this means signals the only signal which counts is a red one as the braking performance is vastly better than the worst case the signal spacing is designed for so you can sail through a yellow at 100kph and still have space to spare to stop at the next signal. Today the system would enforce a 50kph limit ~250m before the yellow signal, train starts to brake automatically at ~250m down to 50kph

    That will make a difference between Blackrock and Grand Canal Dock as it will be full speed into Booterstown (yellow distant forces 50kph half way) unlike today and similarly departing Sydney Parade you get full speed to Sandymount and not restricted by the yellow or red for Serpentine Ave



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Really closure or grade separation is the only definite way to get train frequencies up. Safety is paramount for trains.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Raising or lowering the rail tracks (and at the same time doing the opposite to the road) would be a big project. It would require a significant closure of the rail line, far longer than would be considered acceptable.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Raising the line would be preferred which can be done first. I have no idea how long it would take, nor how it would be done, but I would think it would be possible in a few months. Obviously, the OH wires would need lifting as well, but no station work. Once that was done, attention would go to the work on the road.

    Simplistic certainly, but possible. Otherwise, all the LCs between Merrion Gates and GCD would be closed with little alternative available. I think that would be unacceptable.

    Reports that the Green line conversion from Luas to metro from Charlemont to Sandyford would require a closure of four years was obviously nonsense but jumped on by the Irish Times and other anti metro types. So, how long would raising the line take?



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