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General Emulation Discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Yeah the Steamdeck itself appears to be the catalyst. I think like Ryujinx & Yuzu for example with users providing their own keys, that would seem to be the solution. Is it too late? I doubt it. Worst case, the team walk away and somebody else forks the project with the required changes made. I can't see the dev team walking though, unless there's more to come?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    The issue seems to be with steam so I see it being pulled from steam but work continuing after laying low for a few weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Seems it was Valve being proactive about any potential trouble, according to a former contributor to the Dolphin project:

    Quick thread with my personal summary of the situation.


    Disclaimer: I'm not officially involved with Dolphin anymore. I was the treasurer for the foundation backing the project for a while (technically still am for a month), but I've stepped down from the project a month or so ago. So, still plenty of context, but not much at stake for me.

    The error that many have done in their reporting is to say this was a "DMCA takedown notice" or "DMCA notice" or (ugh) "DMCA". This was none of these things.


    The DMCA is a broad set of laws that includes, a process for copyright owners to ask publishers to take down data. This is defined in sect. 512(c) of the copyright act, and it comes with some requirements from the claimant side of things (here: Nintendo), and some liability on the publisher side of things (here: Valve). It also includes rights for the entity accused (here: the Stichting Dolphin Emulator) to counter claim, allowing the publisher to reinstate the content until the claimant sues.


    In this case, none of this process was followed. To the best of my understanding, this is what happened:


    Valve legal contacted Nintendo of America to ask "hey, what do you think about Dolphin?"

    Nintendo replied to Valve "we think it's bad and also that it violates the DMCA anti-circumvention provisions" (note: nothing about violating copyright itself). Also "please take it down".


    Valve legal takes it down and forwards NoA's reply to the Dolphin Foundation contact address.


    This is very much not a section 502(c) takedown! Just standard legal removals / C&D between two companies.


    This has some interesting and sad consequences:


    Dolphin is not a party into any of this. Valve's ToS likely allows them to take down anything for any reason they want. There's no counter claim process or anything like this.


    Valve could have decided to ignore Nintendo with ~ no liability. They decided to just do whatever they were asked, and that's not surprising given they initiated contact in the first place.


    Dolphin probably has no recourse here to get any other outcome from Valve, but also no particular risk or liability.


    Now onto Nintendo's legal claims: nobody can tell for sure whether Dolphin is in the right, or whether Nintendo is in the right. Like all legal matters, there is a lot of space for interpretation.


    Dolphin does distribute the Wii AES-128 Common Key which is used to encrypt Wii game discs. This isn't required in theory, the tools that dump game discs could just dump decrypted images, in fact that might be easier than dumping encrypted images (the decryption is done transparently by the Wii OS).


    Whether that's allowed by exception clauses for interoperability, whether that's allowed by some kind of fair use clause, whether Nintendo's broken DRM actually counts as an effective copyright protection measure, etc. -> only a lawsuit could decide that. Your guess is probably as good or as bad as anyone else's.

    Source

    So it seems Nintendo here, surprisingly and nicely, are actually being very lenient on Dolphin. This was Valve simply checking the implications of Dolphin being on Steam, Nintendo filled them in on their issue with Dolphin, and Valve, arguably correctly, decided to put the brakes on it all. If the above is true, I don't really see the outrage here, both companies appear to be following procedures you'd expect them to follow. The issue here, as we learned yesterday, is that Dolphin for whatever reason, includes the Wii Common Key within its source. That'll need to change in order to repair their image I think after all of this.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    As they also state the wii drm was broken and is freely available online. So there is an argument that using the Wii key isnt circumventing drm. It will have to be proved in court but it's far from a boundless argument.

    I agree that the gnashing of teeth against nintendo is a bit much in this case but it seems to be fashionable to have a go at nintendo. Sometimes they deserve it but. It in this case.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Another big box freed from the sauron cave. This one filled to the brim with some solid gold, MSX, NES, SNES and other games (a few big box special editions). Still not got anything else sorted in the house so I can go through it!



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,610 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Not emulation, but I have spent the last two hours trying to get Assetto Corsa running on my Steamdeck, to no avail.

    It's true, I have zero avail left...



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Doge




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭Doge


    GT4 looks better than ever.




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Just an update on the whole Dolphin situation, from the team themselves. From their perspective, the lawyer dealing with Valve on behalf of Nintendo, kinda deliberately blurred the lines with regard the wording of DMCA, with the intention of strengthening the position of Nintendo.

    From the original letter to Valve from Nintendo:

    "Wii and Nintendo GameCube game files, or ROMs, are encrypted using proprietary cryptographic keys. The Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully “circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under” the Copyright Act. 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1). Distribution of the emulator, whether by the Dolphin developers or other third-party platforms, constitutes unlawful “traffic[king] in a[] technology . . . that . . . is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure . . . .” 17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(2)(A).3"

    Dolphin's position on it:

    "This sounds extremely bad at a glance (and we certainly had a moment of panic after first reading it), but now that we have done our homework and talked to a lawyer, we are no longer concerned.


    We have a very strong argument that Dolphin is not primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection. Dolphin is designed to recreate the GameCube and Wii hardware as software, and to provide the means for a user to interact with this emulated environment. Only an incredibly tiny portion of our code is actually related to circumvention. Additionally, GameCube games aren't actually encrypted at all, and Dolphin can also play homebrew and is used in the development of game mods. There are even homebrew and mods that specifically target Dolphin as its own platform, given that it has the ability to emulate more memory and processing power than is possible on the original consoles. That's why there are "Dolphin modes" in many modern homebrew games!


    Considering that only a small fraction of what we do involves circumvention, we think that the claim that we are "primarily for circumvention" is a reach. We do not believe this angle would be successful in a US courtroom, if it were ever to come to that. The reason the lawyers representing Nintendo would make such a leap is because they wished to create a narrative where the DMCA's exemptions do not apply to us, as these exemptions are powerful and widely in our favor."

    Specifically, the Dolphin team suggest there is provision for this exact type of situation in DCMA, and that this is why Nintendo haven't (yet) challenged emulation through the courts. (which is startling, considering the likes of Yuzu & Ryujinx exist):

    "...a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

    17 U.S.C. § 1201(f)(2)"

    "Dolphin is an independently created computer program that is circumventing Wii disc encryption for interoperability with Wii software. According to this exemption, this does not constitute infringement under 17 U.S.C. § 1201. This exemption even allows distribution of information collected through circumvention, like encryption keys, if it is for software interoperability."

    So DCMA says that you can independently create software, which enables bypassing/evasion of protection systems, which thereby enables that independently created software to interact with other software programs if it means both will then be able to work together (that's my reading of the above DCMA text anyway), and doing this, is NOT an infringement.

    As usual and as is always the case with things like this, there's semantics, spirit of the law, very corporate friendly judges, and many many other considerations. I suspect neither side could do with actually risking a court battle over it, but it certainly appears, that an open sourced and clean approach to emulator development, is NOT, automatically, a bad thing (which we all knew anyway).

    There's more about it on the page itself - https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2023/07/20/what-happened-to-dolphin-on-steam/



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Anyone else seen the news about RPCSX - a new PS4 emulator (and possible PS5 in time?). https://rpcsx.github.io/rpcsx-site/

    It's founded by Nekotekina (who laid the foundations for the incredible RPCS3), and has a few commits by some other heavy hitter developers too. I wouldn't be surprised to see RPCSX become a defacto PS4 emulator in time. Seemingly, it'll be a lot less complex than PS3 too, and it has just recently booted its first commercial title too. Remember the incredible progress of Yuzu when it first launched? This could be a similar tale...

    It's a system I've virtually no interest in given so much of its library has been ported to PC now, but it's still great to see progress in the PS4/emulation sense.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,216 ✭✭✭MrVestek


    This project looks really interesting! Replacement PSP board to allow an RPi to be hooked up to essentially turn your PSP into a portable emulation powerhouse.





  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    No doubting the skills and talent gone into making it....but retro games, with that d-pad, ouch.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Wouldn't be surprised if it's in a better state than PS2 and PS3 emulation quite quickly considering how similar the architecture is to well known and documented consoles. Really not interested in PS4 emulation outside of 60 FPS bloodborne but these guys aren't doing this so we can all pirate games and it's more to overcome the challenge of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Yeah I'd agree here, and from what I'm reading, it's been said that development will be easier because the PS4 architecture just isn't as complex as the PS3 was.

    I'd love to see them nail it, preservation is important, but I wouldn't see myself using it a whole lot. I've also read it could potentially incorporate PS5 down the road, which is a little more enticing I suppose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,216 ✭✭✭MrVestek




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Amazing stuff, can't help be in awe of what some of these people have the skill to do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭romperstomper


    Anyone used Project Eris on playstation classic? I tried both the 1996 & 1998 version of tomb raider 1. They both load OK and I get to the title screen where you choose the passport (to begin the game) or lara's house (tutorial). no matter what I choose (on either version), I get a black screen. I then need to close or reset the content (through retroarch) to regain control. Is there something I need to change to get tomb raider working?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    From reading online, it seems with these games you need disc images that have a cue file and multiple bin files, not a single one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭romperstomper


    Thanks for the reply. The 1996 version has a cue files and 57 separate tracks in bin format. The 1998 version has a img format (single file) plus cc'd file. Both fail in the same way at the same place



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Hmm, behind that I'm not really sure. My Playstation Classic has never left its box! So I've never used Eris etc. I suspect it'll be a setting for the Playstation RetroArch core, as there isn't much mention of the problem elsewhere really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭romperstomper


    got it working by leveraging cdmage 1.02.1 beta (1.05 didn't work). had to combine the tracks into a single bin. holy smokes retro gaming is non trivial sometimes



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Not exactly emulation but updated my PS2 recently from HDloader to OPL. Works a lot better. You can change modes on the fly instead of having to pick modes on install and being stuck with them.

    Klonoa 2 I finally managed to get working. it got a recent HD release but the PS2 version still looks better with some of the PS2 effects remaining unemulated. The game has awful trouble with disc speeds but a combo of modes gets it working properly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭gucci


    Apologies if this in incorrect place to ask, but I'm looking for a simple hand held emulator for my 6 year old for Christmas.

    Simple being the key phrase here. He would like to play Mario/tetris/pac man type straight forward games.

    Obviously huge amount online (temu/amazon etc) which are probably all the same things but trying to see if there is a steer from someone who maybe has experience.

    Budget would be around 30/60 euro.

    Thanks



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Those devices are all, well, poo, usually. That said, for a six year old, they'll most likely get the job done. No particular recommendations - the Retroid Pocket 3+ and the Anbernic RG505 come up often, but they're well out of the budget you set (they'd be decent enough little machines too, leagues better in every way than the Temu stuff.)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    That Temu stuff also will be coming from china which can take about 4-8 weeks to arrive so it might be touch and go. I couldn't point you towards one either as they are usually over priced garbage. You won't get anything for the price range you are looking at unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,009 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    Anbernic Rg35xx used to be around 50 euro and could be got on AliExpress from sellers/dropshippers in France or Spain, and arriving in under 2 weeks. Miyoo Mini+ around same price, both not bad little machines for the non purist. Emulate up to PlayStation 1 fine. Both have very similar form factors of slightly shrunken OG Gameboy.

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,447 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Heard good things about the anbernics so might be the way to go at that price.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Good spot, I didn't know that Anbernic was within budget, that'll likely do the job just fine.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭gucci


    Thank you for the advice everyone. I have ordered Rg35xx, should arrive next week so il get a bit of time to clean it up and making sure it has mario bros etc 🤪

    He found a handheld pacman game in my old bedroom stash few weeks ago and loves it so just want to keep it nice and basic for now


    I might be back for a bit of coaching/assistance next week!



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