Napoleon - Apple TV+ - Ridley Scott & Joaquin Phoenix

saabsaab · 22-11-2023 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401376#Comment_121401376

Impressive, I thought I was fussy but not to that standard..

22-11-2023 11:31pm

Complete garbage. Do not waste your time

Aurelian · 22-11-2023 11:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400728#Comment_121400728

I've had the Blu Ray sitting here for about 5 years too! Never watched it.

I've a soft spot for Gance's 1960 film Austerlitz about the battle.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2023 1:03am

In short, it feels very much like a film made by a man who responds to criticism with crude remarks like "You weren't there".

I posted this at the beginning of the thread:

This was a disappointment I have to say. There are two main problems with the thing. The first is that there's too much to cover in 2.5 hours. While that was obvious, one might think that the film makers might have focused on one or two things. Instead, they cram far too much in. Secondly, there's no real examination of the man himself here. There's no exploration of his motives, his genius, his actions or anything. We don't know why he's doing what he's doing or why he's able to command the loyalty of his men such that they execute a coup on his behalf and return to him when he escapes his first exile.

I've not seen a lot of Scott's work but this is definitely at the Alien: Covenant rather than the Alien side of the quality spectrum. I actually found myself noticing the inaccuracies but not really caring because everything just happened so fast. It's a bit like the MCU where you're waiting for the next bit and then the next bit. That said, I did enjoy the treatment of Waterloo at the end though the poor Prussians get once again pushed to one side.

I'm glad I didn't fork out BFI IMAX money for this. I saw it in the 4DX at Cineworld and it was grand. I haven't read the biography I purchased yet as I didn't want my mind getting contaminated by the inevitable departures from history and that turned out to be a wise decision. It feels like a hatchet-job but a hatchet-job executed by someone who started and then got bored very quickly. Napoleon is depicted as crude, lustful and little else and there's no real context or explanation as to why this is. If you are interested in the man, there's virtually nothing here. Even Joaquin Phoenix seems to have been fed up since signing on.

There's no reason to see this latest instalment from the "You weren't there" school of historical epics.

23-11-2023 11:50am

I've a limitless card so will watch anything.

Hank the DJ · 23-11-2023 11:59am

If it was just a story, as in not based on a real person, would you have enjoyed it as a movie? I want to see it but if its just grand, I'll wait for it to pop up on Apple.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2023 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404134#Comment_121404134

No. If it was a story, it'd have been structured properly from the ground up around the world and character development. Game of Thrones is based on the Wars of the Roses from fifteenth century England but this only made the narrative stronger. Nothing is rushed as a result. Perhaps the real takeaway here is that Napoleon's life could have been made into an epic, albeit potentially ruinously expensive TV series.

Hank the DJ · 23-11-2023 12:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404172#Comment_121404172

Well that made my decision a lot easier, thanks.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2023 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404223#Comment_121404223

My pleasure.

pixelburp · 23-11-2023 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404172#Comment_121404172

Given this is gonna appear on Apple+ and the rumours that that runtime will be 4 hours, there's probably an argument this already could have been a mini-series and not a film. If the rumour's true there's a good chance the 4 hours isn't even the sum total of the shooting!

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2023 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404266#Comment_121404266

Just what you want when you pay cinema prices, "I can't wait to see the good version on a streaming service".

head82 · 23-11-2023 12:40pm

According to a comment on the radio yesterday.. the 2 hour 30 minute theatrical version is Scotts preferred cut. Which is a little surprising considering the current trend for directors wanting the running time of their 'Directors Cut' to last for almost half a day!

pixelburp · 23-11-2023 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404303#Comment_121404303

As I said it is a rumour, unless it has been confirmed elsewhere so I'd say you still made the right choice; a Ridley Scott movie has always looked better on a cinema screen.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2023 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404359#Comment_121404359

Thanks. I saw both Justice League and Batman V Superman in the cinema. Never got round to seeing the full cuts of either. That said, I think I can live with 2.5 hours of this.

johnny_ultimate · 23-11-2023 12:54pm

Going by one interview I read where Scott said he isn't meant to talk about the director's cut, it gives the impression someone in Columbia Pictures pulled him aside and politely told him to stop promoting the 'better' version that's coming down the line while they're trying to make money from the theatrical release.

As much as Scott's body of work commands respect given the bonafide bangers in there, his career is all over the gaff quality-wise - especially from the 90s onwards. I can't call the director of Alien a 'hack' or anything like that, but certainly a lot of his films have been lazy, workmanlike or half-realised, with only the odd title like The Martian really hitting for me. He also doesn't - in his late period, anyway - have much of a style to call his own, even compared to his late brother (for better and worse in Tony's case). So when I hear 'four-hour director's cut' in Ridley's case, I'm not sure whether to expect 'better' or just 'more'.

odyssey06 · 23-11-2023 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404172#Comment_121404172

Yes, I think when you are constrained by film runtime it is better to illustrate the essence of the character \ person by focusing on one particular event or period. Oppenheimer though at times brilliant for me suffered from trying to cover too much ground.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2023 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404481#Comment_121404481

Yeah. Braveheart is, as I said, almost a fantasy film. However, it has a tighter narrative, significantly better pacing and it makes perfect sense that a nobleman like William Wallace whose wife was murdered by the English to lead a resistance against them. Again, the film is almost entirely fictional but that doesn't mean it can't be entertaining, even down to Patrick McGoohan hilarious butchering of King Edward I.

Gibson's performance as Wallace, flawed and ahistorical though it is, remains as captivating when I rewatched the film a few years ago as it was when I saw it a decade ago. At no point over the film did I wonder why Wallace was bothering to do what he did.

pixelburp · 23-11-2023 1:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404430#Comment_121404430

I've somewhat cheekily, but almost somewhat earnestly, speculated if Tony Scott was the more consistent director of the two brothers; his highs came close to Ridley's own, but never hit the trough so hard as RIdley has done.

23-11-2023 2:58pm

Also I couldn't believe someone brought his 10 year old daughter with him to see it. Poor kid jumped during the sex scene.

silverharp · 24-11-2023 7:43am

I only go to movies where I expect an 8/10 or more experience, seen to many poor reviews to go watch this in the cinema

Homelander · 24-11-2023 2:53pm

I wouldn't say this is a bad film. It's pretty well made, looks great, and the performances are good.

It's just far, far too much to cram into a single movie and it completely fails to capture what Napoleon was trying to do, his motives, and what his actual achievements were.

It skips entire years randomly with almost zero context for the latest situation/battle being portrayed.

It would be like watching a biopic about Hitler and it suddenly jumps from the invasion of Poland to the Battle of Kursk or D-Day with basically no context offered.

I would say it's worth watching, but it's messy and a pretty terrible biopic. It almost treats the viewer like they should possess a working history of the Napoleonic era.

Would have been far better if they focused on something far more specific, eg how he came to power, how he reached the height of power, the disastrous invasion of Russia, or whatever.

Still I'd rate it worth a watch.

murpho999 · 27-11-2023 4:03pm

Saw this yesterday and was disappointed.

It was spectacular and has great production values but I come out of it knowing little more about Napoleon than I did before.

The focus is mainly on his relationship with Josephine which in itself could be a film, as they had an interesting and unusual love affair so for me this was more of a "Napoleon and Josephine" film than a Napoleon biopic.

Hardly anything of his background or rise to power is shown or his reasoning for campaigning and for that I don't think he has been done justice as one of the world's most famous and divisive political figures.

I am also annoyed at the historical inaccuracies and I'm not accepting Scott's curt response to the journalist a few weeks ago when asking "Were you there?"".

The movie is presented as a true story, not an alternative history and even backs the story up with battle death toll statistics at the end so to completely fictionalise parts of his story is just wrong.

Foxtrol · 27-11-2023 5:41pm

Quite a mess of a movie. First time in a while that I saw people get up and leave from an IMAX given the cost to get in and how awkward it is to get out.

All the pieces were there for something great but there was no coherent plan of what the story they wanted to tell. It was a random selection of moments of Napoleon's life that didn't really fit together, nor show his character developing.

Production values were good but again no idea why they decided to just suck all the colour out of it - why was everything having a losing fight with grey?

Weird attempts at comedy throughout, at times it felt someone had watched too many Marvel movies with quippy one liners that didn't fit.

Final weird decision was the accents. Can't fathom how no one put a halt to the complete inconsistency of characters from the same and different nations. I normally let that stuff go but it totally pulls you out of the experience when you have to think about it as it doesn't make any sense.

AMKC · 27-11-2023 7:32pm

So seen it today. It was OK. Some great scenes and battles in it. Some of it was hard to hear. Regretted not going to see it with subtitles .

Some great scenes in it and some depressing ones too.

Hem having sex with her for instance. He was supposed to love her yet treated her like a sex toy. I supposed thats how it was back then. Women were not supposed to or not allowed to enjoy sex 😞

BuffaloTengo · 28-11-2023 1:09am

Saw it at the weekend, loved it. Ridley Scott is one of the few filmmakers to get me into a cinema for a 2 hour 40 min film. One of his strengths is creating a world and putting the viewer in it.

I’m not a Napoleon scholar, if a film takes historical liberties fine, just entertain me. To quote a line from another Scott film, Are you not entertained?! Well I certainly was.

santana75 · 28-11-2023 3:41pm

Saw it last night and overall I thought it was good. Like others have commented though, I came out not really knowing much about Napoleon, it was a fairly disjointed film, hopping from one campaign to the next without much explanation. The battle scenes were top, as was the acting. I mean the scale of the thing is immense, its all up there on the screen but I think there was a better movie in there, given the source material. Also as a side note, The music score seemed to be similar to Barry lyndon, especially for the final battle and Im wondering if this was intentional given that Stanley kubrick had worked for years on a film about napoleon but abandoned the project in favor of Lyndon. Even the scenes by candlelight seemed reminiscent of those in barry lyndon

silverharp · 28-11-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121428877#Comment_121428877

one reviewer mentioned the Lyndon film as how to film battle sequences, use tight shots to only show parts of a battle to make it more realistic if you are on a budget or dont have access to the Soviet Army (Waterloo)

Tombo2001 · 29-11-2023 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424541#Comment_121424541

Not having watched the movie, I think nonetheless this is enough to put me off. His relationship with Josephine was certainly not what defined or distinquished Napoleon. Sounds a bit like if you made a movie about Macron that looked only at his relationship with his older partner, and omitted to record his presidency. Who cares.

I read a fairly detailed biography of Napoleon recently, certainly an interesting man but this sounds like a no-no.

Rowley Birkin QC · 29-11-2023 10:53am

Did anyone else catch, what I've decided has to have been, a totally bizarre refence to a well known video of a man being arrested?

WrenBoy · 01-12-2023 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431929#Comment_121431929

I let out a laugh at that, not sure if intentional but what are the odds its a coincidence like ?

WrenBoy · 01-12-2023 12:50pm

I wonder if there's a directors cut ? Seemed like large chunks were cut to me, especially his campaigns which were cut quite short in my opinion.

johnny_ultimate · 01-12-2023 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441576#Comment_121441576

Yeah, Ridley Scott has already confirmed a longer director's cut version - potentially around four hours - will be released on Apple TV+.

Fysh · 01-12-2023 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441576#Comment_121441576

Apparently there has been talk from Scott that the version which will arrive on Apple TV+ will have a 4 hour runtime. Whether that is a better version or simply a longer one is another question...

Dick phelan · 02-12-2023 3:28pm

Very disappointing. Apart from the visuals of the battle scenes. A complete mess. Skips massive chunks of time and provided no background or context of major events. Spends way too much time focusing on his relationship with Josephine. Failed to show what a brilliant military commander he was.

Phoenix doesn't capture the charisma Napoleon had and why he was able to become emperor. Major events like his invasion of Egypt and Russia are only given a few minutes. Would have been better to do a proper TV series.

Spon Farmer · 06-12-2023 4:46pm

I went in expecting it to be 50% Napoleon and Josephine and 50% Napoleon’s greatest battles so I was disappointed that half of the battles were only the opening charge.

However, it is very well made and great performances. It has made me want to pick up a few history books to learn more about his mother and Waterloo (was the battle really over that quickly?

NAPOLEON & JOSEPHINE is a much more suitable title

Butson · 06-12-2023 5:13pm

The Austerlitz battle scene was fantastic.

I think the easy thing would have been to reem through all his famous battles but really he was such a complex character and Josephine had such a profound impact on him.

Can crib about historical inaccuracies (Pyramids did look cool though) but most people going to watch a movie couldn't care less. Phoenix was immense as usual.

I enjoyed it and do look forward to the directors cut to fill in the obvious gaps.

El Duda · 08-12-2023 11:18am

Napoleon – 4/10

Nap-ole-on and on and on...

Outside of the battle scenes, this is exactly as dull and tiresome as I expected.

Foxtrol · 08-12-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462492#Comment_121462492

I didn't feel they did a good job digging into complexity of his character.

It was more they flashed to him at different times of his life and for the most part he was the weird way he was and didn't really develop.

Decuc500 · 09-12-2023 7:06pm

Thought this was a beautiful and immersive movie. Phoenix was excellent. Finally a 'blockbuster' movie made with artistry and care that was worth a trip to the cinema.

Tony EH · 13-12-2023 11:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441602#Comment_121441602

I think that might be the version I'll wait for.

A buddy of mine went to see it and simply said "You'll hate it".

😄

I also heard that he blows up the pyramids during the French campaign at the turn of the century?

Oh dear...

Montage of Feck · 19-12-2023 12:11pm

A solid good looking film, as you'd expect from Scott but left me disappointed. Maybe it's too much to expect an adequate portrayal in a popcorn movie, the result wasn't historically accurate or particularly exciting.

Should have been a series or focused on a particular campaign such as Egypt.

ancapailldorcha · 19-12-2023 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513499#Comment_121513499

A trilogy could have worked really nicely without some axe-grinding Brit making a mess of it. One could take three moments: Napoleon's rise & Austerlitz, Leipzig/Moscow & Waterloo and build up to each with plenty of room to flesh him out.

Instead, we got this.

Agent Coulson · 10-01-2024 4:25pm

The next Apple film to go to VOD and hitting the high seas today before it actually gets released on AppleTV+

expectationlost · 11-01-2024 5:53pm

really weird considering how many deaths he was responsible for that people are on here describing him as successful and a great military leader

ancapailldorcha · 11-01-2024 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602841#Comment_121602841

How would one be a great military leader without causing many deaths?

bodhrandude · 12-01-2024 1:16am

Enjoyed it, not knowing the definite history I thought it was visually amazing, the eye for detail and period drama opulence I thought was brilliant and the battle scenes were amazing.

expectationlost · 12-01-2024 1:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121603234#Comment_121603234

fight as little as rarely as possible.

ancapailldorcha · 12-01-2024 1:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604744#Comment_121604744

What point are you trying to make here?

Tony EH · 12-01-2024 2:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602841#Comment_121602841

Do you know what an oxymoron is? Because you're really close, if not bang on, here.

How can one be a "great military leader" and not be responsible for death? By virtue of the fact that Napoleon led his armies to a number of victories (some of which are quite remarkable) obviously means that he is responsible for the death within the ranks of the armies he defeated.

28-01-2024 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604745#Comment_121604745

Maybe a truly great leader doesn’t get 3 million soldier’s killed under their leadership.

Napoleon - Apple TV+ - Ridley Scott & Joaquin Phoenix

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