Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I was just waiting for the official word only then did I know it was true and she would be home with her family .Really delighted for her and her family .

Yes, they did in both Germany and Japan, yet it failed in Afghanistan despite spending 20 years and billions (or was it trillions) of dollars? ) The main difference why it worked in Japan and Germany, but not in Afghanistan is that both Japan and Germany were society's that followed a central leadership, and what was decided at the very top, was accepted and acted upon by all of society. (Hitler in Germany, and the Emperor in Japan) Afghanistan was the complete opposite. Faced with a common enemy, Russia, they coordinated, but that was it. When it came to forming an independent state of Afghanistan, which the US had being preparing them for, it all collapsed at the first fence, and they reverted to their traditional Afghan ways. Different regions were ruled by the local warlords. But the minute the Taliban crossed the border back into Afghanistan, and Karzai fled, then it all fell apart into the fragmented Afghanistan that the Taliban were able to control. And this is what we have today. There is no central leadership in Islam, which can say do this or do that. It's all based on the Quran, and the various interpretations of it that decide which path to take, and thats that.

Fantastic..

And the Wahhabi's consider everyone who is not a Wahhabi, as not being a true Muslim. You can take all of the different version's, each claiming to be the true followers of Islam, and that goes for each and every version that you can name. What makes any version different from other version's is the "brand" of Islam they follow. Some are peaceful, others are not. But the one thing ISIS and Hamas have in common is their sheer brutality and dedication to the destruction of anyone they consider enemies of Islam. Hamas are no different from the ISIS that paraded their prisoners, dressed in orange jump suits, before they beheaded them all in public, and in one case, they burned a Jordanian pilot alive in a cage. Hamas left the very same murderous message on the 7th. No different, except ISIS not wanting to hand over the mantle of being the "True" followers of Islam, hence ISIS considers Hamas as being apostates. They consider all Muslims as apostates, unless of course, they are ISIS. At heart, they are the very same murderous radical Islams that are fighting for the return of the caliphate. Just trying to outdo each other to become the "Best" followers of Allah. Their actions speak louder than words, and there's no difference between any Radical Muslims despite what they claim.

Yes, that's true. Quite a large nr of Muslims join radical groups because they are paid to do so, it's the only employment in the area they live in. Same goes for Palestinian's living in Gaza, massive unemployment and then along comes Hamas, money no object, jobs for the followers, which is a pretty easy sell, to fight against the hated enemy, Israel. Same thing the present day in Afghanistan. But yet, not every Muslim is happy to follow these radicals. Much anti-Hamas sentiment is suppressed violently within Gaza, same as anti-Taliban sentiment is suppressed in Afghanistan (and in the North of Afghanistan, there's still plenty of that.) So yes, if an alternative live could be provided, then I could see many Muslims following it.

Norman Finkelstein came across very well on the Piers Morgan show the other night. I believe he is regarded as the pre eminent expert on Gaza. Their will be no peace while Netanyahu is in power. If Israel resumes it's genocide after the release of hostages then it's international goodwill will continue to evaporate.

Prosperity for Palestinians is the only way to 'defeat' Hamas. Hamas can thrive because Palestinians are so oppressed. The greater the mass killings of Palestinians the greater the support for Hamas. It's a bit rich for Netanyahu to want to destroy Hamas considering Israel encouraged and financed Hamas in the early years as a counter measure to the PLO and to try and split the Palestinian people and encourage a form of civil war.

Finkelstein made an interesting point re the October 7th attacks. If people break out of a concentration camp where they have been interned for 20 years is it any wonder they lash out at their oppressor. If you treat people like animals is it any wonder if they act like animals. For the record I would condemn the October 7th attacks.

There were 13 arrests out of 300k people at London March today. A march that was observed by a massive police presence.

6 for failure to disperse.

So that's 7 for what was said to be harmful messaging of some sort.

That's 0.002%.

So even if the police only arrested 1 out of 10 displaying harmful messaging (no suggestion that this was the case), it would still mean that 99.98% of the marches had a peaceful message.

Do you think a group should be defined by the actions of 0.02% of its members (or probably closer to 0.002% to be more accurate)?

The IDF are really cruel and really see Palestinians as below them. There's a hatred there that's just so inhuman. And yes Hamas are worse, doesn't make the IDF right or good. Just because you're not as evil, doesn't mean you're not evil.

Despite what Ukraine has been though they still don't show that much evil and hatred to Russian soldiers, let alone Russian civilians.

Not sure what this is supposed to show, or discredit.

Like any other country in the world, Israel is not a hive mind. Of course people will strongly disagree with what's happening, and have done since day one, no different to Palestinians that are anti-Hamas.

We also saw similar, large-scale protests in Russia at the start of the Ukraine war, but to this day polls show the majority remain in favor or support the war.

Not all Israelis support what's happening. Not all Palestinians support what happened on October 7th. Not all Russian's support the ongoing war in Ukraine.

I don't think anyone ever suggested or thought otherwise.

Holocaust deniers also, Pro-Hamas supporters etc...

So protest about the lax security that resulted in the deaths of 800 civilians, but don't protest the deaths of 13000 civilians.

For those on the 9/11 system, that's 8x vs 562x

Who is that directed at?

Just nonsensical posting.

Who expressly said Israelis protesting means nothing? Can you point out where?

Who said people representing another - or any - group is an "excuse" to murder thousands of children? Can you also point out where anyone excused the death of thousands of civilians/children?

This level of infantile nonsense is contributing exactly zero to the debate.

It's the first time I've seen someone argue that families of Israel want more bombs fired at the areas where their family members are being held.

Hamas offered to exchange hostages within a week after they were captured, Nethanyahu refused but instead started a genocide.

Surely you accept that the people who want their family members returned would have preferred he didn't act as he did but instead pushed the return of hostages.

Where did that poster argue that?

Because they did not, or anything close.

Literally pointing out a fact, that the protest is about families wanting the Government to do more in no way, shape or form says, suggests, or implies that families are demanding that Israel unload more bombs on Gaza.

Only the families can know what greater effort means. Someone pointing out that they want greater effort, whatever form that might take, is just pointing out an objective fact.

This sort of utter crap would be akin to claiming that someone taking part in a pro-palestinian march is advocating for a repeat of Oct 7th.

Could you maybe actually stop and consider what you're saying before you post such complete and utter drivel.

Sorry, but you are arguing in bad faith.

They simply stated facts, but you don't like those facts so you invented scenarios instead.

The poster pointed out an absolute fact. The protest isn't opposition to the war, it's calling for more to be done to release hostages.

They did not "imply" they are in favour of the war. They said nothing about that whatsoever. They simply stated a fact - and the fact is that the protest is calling for more to be done to free hostages, and it doesn't say anything about opposition to the war.

Are some the crowd against the war? I'm sure they are. But nobody can draw any facts from the photo save for the fact they the placards call for more action.

What does more action mean? We have no idea. Only the protestors can answer that. Yet you came along and claimed that the poster was arguing that families are calling for more bombs to be dropped!

It's complete fiction based on nothing whatsoever save your own bias.

You can dance around that simple truth whatever way you like, but it is the truth.