Your New WHS Index

bakerbhoy · 02-10-2023 8:01pm

That's a problem isn't it.

If the course ratings are off/incorrect. Hcaps at those clubs are skewed either way .

32 pts at my course equals a reduction. Not sure it's merited.

boccy23 · 02-10-2023 9:37pm

Thanks Seve

paulos53 · 08-11-2023 2:48pm

Some new changes to WHS coming in 2024. Links attached with more detailed explanations.

Course Rating minus Par will be used for calculating course handicap. Already used in the rest of the world except Britain & Ireland. The major benefit is that it provides fairness if you want to hold a multi-tee competition.

Example: Your course is a par 72 and the course rating is 72.6. Then you will get an extra 0.6 to your course handicap

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/what-is-course-rating-minus-par/

Good scores in a Fourball can count for handicap. Basically if a player scores on at least 9 of the holes then an 18 hole score will be calculated. This score will need to be at least 36 pts to be a handicap qualifying score.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/whs-changes-2024-fourball-betterball-scores-handicap/

10-17 hole rounds can be handicap qualifying. Coincidentally, I had a query about a 17 hole round on this thread a few weeks ago. Good to know that the golfing authorities are monitoring our posts. 🤣

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/whs-changes-2024-what-is-expected-score/

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/whs-changes-2024-competitions-non-standard-number-of-holes

Courses now only need to be 1500 yards to get a course rating. This allows par 3 courses to be rated

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/whs-changes-2024-par-3-golf-course

A few other small changes if anybody wants to read the full list: https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/world-handicap-system-2024-rules-of-handicapping/

PARlance · 08-11-2023 3:07pm

Excellent news re the 10-17 holes... It'll be interesting to see if our Tuesday evening 10 hole comp will take this up. No excuses now. They might even switch it to a 9 hole so it can finish at the clubhouse.

RoadRunner · 08-11-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342097#Comment_121342097

I remember you explaining that one.. 🤐 bizarre!

PARlance · 08-11-2023 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342212#Comment_121342212

Bizarre is not the word! Literally going out of the way to make it non-counting.

dan_ep82 · 09-11-2023 5:43pm

Feel the changes deserve a new thread so it doesn’t get buried

The Expected score change I’ll have to look at again, just skimming it and it seems like it will effect any 9 holes rounds

blue note · 09-11-2023 7:58pm

I'm not fond of the fourballs being able to count, but in fairness it is just the good ones. I suppose it will get those guys who play a lot of fourballs so generally don't have their good scores count.

The par 3 courses sounds crazy to me. Some par 3 courses are glorified pitch and putt courses. Longer than pitch and putt holes, but a long way short of proper par 3s. And smaller greens. It's just not quite the same game as golf. But I suppose it will affect so few handicaps it just won't matter.

Seve OB · 09-11-2023 8:25pm

I doubt any of those short courses in Ireland….. or are there?

fourball will be interesting to see how it works. I know I had always been used in other jurisdictions. You had to finish out the very hole and put your score in.

but rife for cheating. Partner in for par…… ooops I missed that 1 footer for mine 🥸

spacecoyote · 09-11-2023 8:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348330#Comment_121348330

Or don't even write a score on the card other than the one that's counting

Seve OB · 09-11-2023 9:03pm

Well they had to finish. I’ve witnessed first hand. It’s not like here where our normal is to pick up if partner had scored on hole and can’t be beat

paulos53 · 09-11-2023 9:11pm

The new fourball system assumes that you pick up once you can't beat your partner's score. If your partner scored 1 point then you also get 1 point. If your partner scored 2 points or more then you get 1.5 points.

The player's score needs to be at least 36 points for it to count for handicap purposes. i.e. a handicap cut for most players and unlikely to result in a handicap increase.

National associations have the option to opt out which is a possibility.

Seve OB · 09-11-2023 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348554#Comment_121348554

That actually sounds quite fair but I’m sure some people will argue though! It might give to many points on one hole but not enough on other holes (if you were to look at actual score), but seems a better way than I seen internally before.

A few months ago I played with a guy off +2. he was fantastic, I played ok. He was probably on the card for 13 or 14 holes and I reckon I might have come in with a few 3 pointers and couple of 2 pointers. I have a habit of playing out, I just like to keep my own score and I know i had 33 points on the day. We had team score of 46 (5th place). I was personally not good enough on the day for a counting score. However I would welcome a system which would apply cuts/low counting score (whatever they are called nowadays 🤣) in such circumstances. It’s only right and might just be a good way to combat some of the pulling that goes on.

Also really great if poor fourball scores are ignored.

blue note · 10-11-2023 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121348330#Comment_121348330

I'd say the par 3s in deer park (gone now I think) and stepaside would be over 1500 yards. But the greens would be in-between pitch and putt and golf course greens, they wouldn't have golf course standard bunkers there was possibly no water on either. They're the only two I've played, but there's a par 3 in Malahide castle that's possibly 1500 yards and one in st Annes too. I'm sure there's more around the country.

1500 yards is extremely short. An average of 83 yards a hole, 75 meters. These courses just don't test anything like the same range of skills that even the most straightforward golf courses do. I just can't see how you'd allow them.

Ivefoundgod · 10-11-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350392#Comment_121350392

Par 3 near me is 3100ish yards. I think any course is fine once rated correctly, don't really agree that it doesn't test golfers, maybe not their driving but i've played par 3s with all levels of golfer and have yet to see someone obliterate a course. They are not as easy as people think IMO and theres an element of snobbery (not accusing you of this btw) from some golfers who don't consider it real golf. Once properly rated I don't see any issue at all. They're a really valuable way of getting people into golf too without the need for all the gear, can wear casual clothes etc. Helpful for people starting out to have an idea of what kind of handicap they might expect on a full size course.

blue note · 10-11-2023 11:51am

An interesting message I got from my club the other day - they said that their policy of applying a further handicap cut of at least one shot for any scores better than 42 points / lower than -6 net in strokeplay had worked very well in 2023 so will continue into 2024. I didn't realise we had that policy in place (sadly, I'd have loved one of those scores). But this seems crazy to me for a number of reasons

There's a handicap system in place already that caters for exceptional scoring reductions
it sounds like it doesn't take conditions into consideration at all. You could have a day where a PCC of +3 was applied but there's no extra cut for a 42, whereas on the most benign of days a 43 could get cut. When you have PCCs, why wouldn't you use them to move that 42 point threshold?
It's a second club for a lot of members, particularly so they can play in winter. So I'd imagine those members wouldn't have that cut applied to them?
And finally - it's completely unneeded. A quick scan through the last 20 Sunday singles comps shows that in 1,543 rounds, there were 4 better than 6 under net. Three 43 pointers and a 47.

It's so rare it doesn't really matter, but it just seems stupid that a club would do this. But fundamentally, I just disagree with clubs fiddling with the handicap system to suit themselves. Whatever about different countries having different handicapping systems, but different clubs have different rules is just wrong.

It strongly suggests to me that people still perceive that there are bandits aplenty shooting ridiculous scores every week and have created a rule to deal with it. The fact that it isn't the case doesn't seem to matter.

Now I didn't look at the midweek open results because I can't just scan through 20 pictures for them, but I'd be amazed if there are constant big scores in them.

blue note · 10-11-2023 12:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350425#Comment_121350425

I'm not saying that they don't test golfers, but the 2 I've played certainly don't test the range of skills that a normal golf course will test. 3,100 sounds quite reasonable, so perhaps ranking that one is okay. But on the two I've played, I suspect they both would have comfortably been long enough to be ranked but neither remotely suitable.

I found stepaside's scorecard online. It's 2,000 yards long. The first hole that most people would need more than a wedge on is the 9th. Up to then the longest is 126 yards. On the back 9 there are two decent length - 145 and 141 yards. After that, a wedge would do most people. The greens were far smaller than normal greens, there was no trouble, the bunkers were very modest. You could have two golfers play here with the same handicap on full golf courses, but very different games - one has a good long game but disasterous short and the other the opposite. On normal courses they might balance out and both be 15 handicappers, but in Stepaside they could be 10 shots different.

On par 3 courses where the 18 holes wouldn't be out of place on a normal golf course - fair enough. But on par 3 courses where many holes wouldn't be out of place on a pitch and putt course, they just should be out of scope for ranking.

Russman · 13-11-2023 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350473#Comment_121350473

"It strongly suggests to me that people still perceive that there are bandits aplenty shooting ridiculous scores every week and have created a rule to deal with it. The fact that it isn't the case doesn't seem to matter."

IMHO this line sums up golf in Ireland for the last 30 years.

I dunno, I think I might actually have come 180 degrees on WHS, from fully in favour of it (albeit without caring that much either way in the bigger picture) and its logic, to now thinking its completely ridiculous. I know I mentioned it a couple of pages ago I think, but I just can't get on board with a system that has deemed scores or expected scores or extrapolations of scores. It just makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm a bit too old school about it, but IMO your score is the number of strokes you actually took, nothing else. If you miss a 2 footer or hit it OOB, that's on you, there's isn't a person on the planet apart from you who can say for sure if you meant it or not. Anything else is an artificial construct. OK I definitely buy into the logic that 75 on one course is better golf than 75 on another course and the slope/rating/PCC systems covers that. Even the fourball thing is madness IMO. You play differently with the backup of a partner. I bet every single player on here has had singles rounds where they've had 10, maybe 12 good or acceptable holes, and the card has been ruined by a few bad ones. I'd even go so far as to suggest that's more often the case than not for club golfers. I just can't see the logic of assuming a score for a players "bad" holes in a fourball. Granted I'm basing this on the posts in this thread, I haven't read the actual changes fully yet. Its almost like saying your handicap is your best X number of holes, don't mind the bad ones, we'll give you a good score on them anyway. When they start letting me drop my worst 3 holes and put in pars instead for the monthly medal maybe I could buy into it then !😁

Seve OB · 13-11-2023 1:40pm

I don’t really think the majority of golfers play a majorly different game when playing fourball v singles.

subtle differences yes, like maybe lagging a putt up close and giving your partner a crack at the birdie or whatever…… but let’s face it, who is really lagging a putt on purpose, we are all trying to make them.

real difference might be when your partner gives you advice. Lay up here or go for that, where you might have had a different shot in mind, but in my experience that’s not really what happens in a regular Wednesday club fourball, it’s more of an interclub or matchplay thing

i guess what m saying is, I think fourballs can and should count and to combat the chancers, I like the way it appears that it’s gonna work

Russman · 13-11-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121362874#Comment_121362874

Yeah, that's all pretty fair, and I can see (without necesarily fully agreeing with) the argument for the fourballs. I think I just don't like where we seem to be as golf in general, where there's almost a default finger of suspicion if someone has a great round, or a score is to be assumed based on an incomplete round - I've seen too many good front nines ruined by a collapse on the back, by all levels of player, to think there's any sort of relationship between the start and finish of a round. Or these "chancers" - how many are there in reality ? I suppose its how long is a piece of string, but I honestly don't think there are that many "real" ones, that can do it to order. Obviously if someone is winning fourballs regularly, by all means have a look at them, but even at that, someone's regular level of playing could well dovetail with someone else and become a great fourball round. I know for myself when I was really struggling about 3/4 years ago, I'd regularly be say close to level par for my best maybe 12/13 holes of a given round, but would throw in 4 triples or something mad like that - if I was with the right partner we'd have cleaned up in fourballs, even though I was rarely better than 32/33 points on my own card (singles or fourball !).

Ahh look, it is what it is, its not life or death. I just think any system with so many "adjustments" gets away from where we'd all want to be.

Sorbet · 24-11-2023 12:17pm

Looking for some handicap advice as don’t have a lot of experience in this stuff and how clubs operate etc.

Took up golf this year and handed in six 9 hole cards over the summer to get my first ever handicap of 21.0. To my mind I’ve never played anywhere near that but as I’m starting out I’m only really playing casual golf so haven’t submitted a card or an online score until very recently.

With the shortening of the days I’ve had to get earlier on the timesheet and therefore enter a couple of 9 hole competitions in my club. I don’t think they count for handicap purposes due to the time of year - I got 9 points in my last 9 hole competition so clearly my handicap is way off and it’s a little embarrassing to be playing off 21.

Not really worried about it one way or the other, would nice to have a handicap that would let me compete at least but I guess next year I can start to submit some scores when courses count for handicap purposes (if you’re getting the sense I don’t really get this you’re right!!).

My question - I received an email from the club today through BRS Golf saying that the handicap committee are obliged to conduct an annual handicap review. I’m wondering should I be flagging my situation to the committee to get proactively reviewed or keep quiet? My sense is I should leave it alone and let nature take its course and learn the lesson that I should have been submitting scores throughout the summer and will do so in Spring’24.

As I say I’m not really worried about the handicap one way or the other as I’m just loving getting out and playing golf but without a huge background in how it all works thought I’d ask the question on here.

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot · 24-11-2023 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411640#Comment_121411640

I'd say unless you have 20 scores built up on your record they won't perform a review anyway. If you don't have 20 scores then wait and build them up to get a true reflection on your handicap. If you already have 20 scores on your record and you feel your handicap should be higher then request a review.

Sorbet · 24-11-2023 1:31pm

Thanks for confirming. Only have the six original 9 hole scores so will leave alone and start returning scores as soon as course conditions allow. Thanks

gypsy79 · 24-11-2023 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412048#Comment_121412048

Yes you need to just play more qualifying rounds and it will normalise

Sorbet · 24-11-2023 3:13pm

Thanks and just a follow up newbie question. Typically when would you expect courses to be counting for handicap purposes (I don’t play in a links)? February, March too early in your experience?

callaway92 · 24-11-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121412832#Comment_121412832

Generally end of February at a push and a lot of luck.

El Guapo! · 24-11-2023 3:26pm

The way things are going weather-wise, counting rounds might be on a Wednesday in July next year.

gypsy79 · 24-11-2023 3:48pm

Lots of courses start thinking about it at Paddys Day

This years was shortest season ever in my memory

dan_ep82 · 24-11-2023 4:33pm

Normally Paddy’s yeah, it’s nearly always a few weeks too early. Expect to be placing in the fairway until mid April unless we get a lot firmer ground than usual.

Fotish · 27-11-2023 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411838#Comment_121411838

His Initial Handicap sounds wrong.

Handicaps up to 54 can be allocated under WHS rules.

Because of the way the Hard Cap / Soft Cap works it could take a long time for him to increase his Handicap to reflect his playing ability.

It is easy to reduce a players Handicap but difficult to increase it ( after Initial Handicap is given ).

Anthing over 5 shots has to go to the Branch for approval.

He should ask for a review , nothing to lose .

Seve OB · 27-11-2023 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423169#Comment_121423169

you can't say that without knowing the actual scores he has put in

ive seen a few new handicaps over the past couple of years and each and every one of them fall into the WHS calculations. ie terrible scores reduced to a net score of +4 (being a net double based on the worst handicap possible of 54, 3 shots per hole) all it takes is a few half decent holes to keep the initial handicap down

so I'd be pretty confident that the initial handicap is not wrong and was calculated correctly under WHS. In fact I think WHS is a much better way of doing it because it's visible and transparent. Before it seemed nearly everyone was just given an arbitrary number.

I'm not sure but would have thought the hard /soft cap will only come into play when someone has a full record so that would be interesting to know if that's the case or does it kick in from the initial 3 cards.

gypsy79 · 27-11-2023 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423357#Comment_121423357

It kicks in after 20 rounds...but can be from anytime in collating those 20

The few issues I have seen is when under WHS someone has had a decent score at start and it gives them very low low index

For example, lad who was clearly a 10-12 HC was given a low index of 3 due around a score in his 3 rounds. But those 3 rounds were before WHS and while he transferred his handicap from old club his score history wasnt transferred

OEP · 27-11-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423864#Comment_121423864

It can happen but it sorts itself out in a few rounds

Sorbet · 27-11-2023 3:55pm

Thanks all for your comments - very useful. As luck would have it, I went out at the weekend in a club competition and scored 16 points. Best I’ve done by a distance and out of nowhere. Although it’s no way near a winning score it does give me hope that better things ahead and my handicap is probably reasonable. Thanks again.

Sorbet · 27-11-2023 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424756#Comment_121424756

I should say that was 9 hole competition!!

gypsy79 · 27-11-2023 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424278#Comment_121424278

Nope in this case it look 2 years to fully wear off as he was capped at 8.4 I think it was (from 3.4 low index once he had 20 rounds) then for next year his low index was 11.4

His real HCI was between 10-12

Rikand · 27-11-2023 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424760#Comment_121424760

A full winter of golf and you'll be playing to 21 in no time!

OEP · 27-11-2023 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425040#Comment_121425040

Fair enough but he almost certainly could have asked for that to be reviewed, no?

billy3sheets · 27-11-2023 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425040#Comment_121425040

A Low Handicap Index is the lowest Handicap Index® achieved over the 365-day period preceding the most recent score in your scoring record.

I don't see how it can take 2 years to get away from his Low Index.

Hitting a new Low Index can happen at any time. You are then anchored to that for 1 year. Drift to 3 shots higher and you go on Soft Cap which slows your rate of increase by 50%. Drift to 5 shots higher and you go on Hard Cap. But only for 1 year. When that Low Index goes outside 1 year old, then the Low Index becomes your next lowest Index, which could be 1 day or 364 days ago.

A review can be requested at any time by writing to your Handicap Committee and stating your case.

gypsy79 · 27-11-2023 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426186#Comment_121426186

Yes he got something off the handicap comittee....long story. I was only one in club who properly understood why this was an issue

Easiest fix was to get his scoring record from his previous club transferred on to current record

Squeaksoutloud · 01-01-2024 11:35am

Anyone know why my handicap index would have randomly jumped overnight from 2023 into 2024? Seem to have had one shot added to my index. Checked with one or two others in the club and they haven't had the same happen.

dan_ep82 · 01-01-2024 1:24pm

Annual Handicap review. Were you scoring poorly in qualifying rounds?

Seve OB · 01-01-2024 3:34pm

Sounds like a review alright. Ask your handicap secretary

billy3sheets · 01-01-2024 4:43pm

@Squeaksoutloud If you were adjusted in the Annual Handicap Review, you should have been informed by email and given time to appeal it. Unless you managed to play a counting round, only Handicap Committee could have adjusted it.

Squeaksoutloud · 01-01-2024 7:01pm

Ok thanks will look into it. Have plenty of counting rounds in 2023 (28) and plenty of ones outside my top 8 in last 20 to fall back on that wouldn't change handicap by much. Ben quite consistent overall and on a downward trajectory so it's a strange one alright.