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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not sure what FF/FG have to do with me, I am a supporter of neither

    I am not sure why you keep reading posts incorrectly. I didn't say you had anything to do with FF/FG, I pointed out you said the same thing as they have been saying for years.

    And SF's plans to address this are......?


    The Shinners have introduced a Bill on Lobbying and want more powers to be given to SIPO.

    They cannot do that, that power lies with the government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It makes me laugh everytime I see a claim that Sinn Fein will deal with corruption. You only have to look at the way they play ducks and drakes with the funding rules between North and South to realise that Sinn Fein stand up to their name every single time.

    They are the most corrupt party on this island by a long distance (and yes, I include the DUP in that), run undemocratically by a cabal in Belfast, funded by secret donations from the US, peddled through different funding arrangements north and south, leading to them being the largest property owners and landlords of any political party. That they will do anything to sort themselves out is the biggest joke going.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You have to ask why people who believe a party are the most 'corrupt' support the parties that will not properly regulate and who circle the wagons around themselves when they are caught in corruption scandals.

    Well, you don't have to wonder for long actually. You don't change things that suit you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Money tree economics, social policies that would make Roderic O'Gorman look like the right wing and belligerent foreign policy stance isn't going down too well in the polls thankfully.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So compare the powers that SIPO were just given in relation to Lobbying and tell me what the gaps are to the SF bill.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You have to ask why people who believe a party are the most 'corrupt' support the parties that will not properly regulate and who circle the wagons around themselves when they are caught in corruption scandals.

    Examples of which are?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why would I do that when it was not what I raised?


    Just look at any of the scandals with regards to wrongdoing during this government that were referred to SIPO.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why would I do that when it was not what I raised?

    Allow me to try another question, what powers do SF want to give SIPO that they do not already have? 4

    Just look at any of the scandals with regards to wrongdoing during this government that were referred to SIPO.

    Wait, you said "You have to ask why people who believe a party are the most 'corrupt' support the parties that will not properly regulate and who circle the wagons around themselves when they are caught in corruption scandals" and then refer to investigations as examples when those would be examples of the exact opposite i.e. where wrongdoing is suspected, its going through the investigation process

    Which is it? Either wrongdoing is being investigated or its not because "the wagons are being circled". Referring to investigations as evidence of stuff being hidden is an utter nonsense argument as its disproves your argument



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    its going through the investigation process...

    that is wholly inadequate and despite being asked for does not have the powers that process needs because it suits the power swapping parties in this country that it is that way.

    SIPO's lack of powers are in effect one of the wagons routinely used in the circle of protection.

    The Dáil saw wagons being circled too.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    that is wholly inadequate

    An investigation is inadequate? Weird take, but what would you propose instead? Summary execution?

    despite being asked for does not have the powers that process needs because it suits the power swapping parties in this country that it is that way.

    SIPO's lack of powers are in effect one of the wagons routinely used in the circle of protection.

    The Dáil saw wagons being circled too.

    Again, I'll ask, though you'll probably duck n dive again. You may take whichever variation of the question that suits you

    • What powers do SIPO not have that SF propose to give them?
    • What powers do SF want to give SIPO that they do not already have? 
    • Compare the powers that SIPO were just given in relation to Lobbying and tell me what the gaps are to the SF bill?

    Its essentially the same question though its very telling that you are avoiding an answer regardless

    Very telling indeed



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ducking and diving?

    I think the whole country got to see the inadequacy of SIPO.

    You agree it is in need of more powers but when the effect of the lack of powers are mentioned you try to pretend that didn't happen and investigations were adequate.

    I have said way back what we require is a body that is not passive, we need a regulatory body that is vetting and investigating without the need for a complaint. It's oversight body should also be completely cross party to ensure as best as possible that it cannot be controlled politically. It also needs to be able to hand down stiffer sanctions.

    I know SF want the first one of those but not sure of the other two. I am not a member and maybe you should ask them or a member those questions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The kidnapping of hostages is a war crime

    The deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime

    The PIRA did all these.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its becoming a very obvious pattern

    • "SF will do better"
      • How?
    • "SF will do better"
      • Ok.....how?
    • "SF will do something"
      • What?

    Followed by one of the following

    • "You'll find out after the election"
    • "Why are you asking me?
    • "oh look, a bird!"

    Its really very simple, you said SIPO need more powers, but are unable to outline what powers they need that they don't already have yet you claim they are not being given powers but can't articulate what powers those should be.

    You also said other parties are blocking SIPO investigations and point to SIPO investigations as proof of.....investigations being blocked....err wha?

    You claim SIPO are not being given new powers yet ignore the new powers they were given literally just weeks ago

    You show a SF proposed bill to address lobbying as an illustration of how they want to do something, but you can't show how its any different to the new SIPO powers given recently to address lobbying

    Now you go off on a tangent waffling about a new body 🙄

    I'll add SIPO to the list of things that tend to catch you out. This list is growing



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Like 'terrorist/terrorism', 'War crimes' is completely devalued as a term in this country, mostly by those who only want one set of people charged with war crimes and who cannot even accept it was a war if that suits their particular stance on any given day.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sounds very much like the hypocrisy of SF condemning the UK Legacy & Reconciliation Bill while at the same time Gerry Adams, in the case which will show evidence of his terrorist links the IRA, is both pushing for a dismissal of the case and delaying it for as long as possible, because the bill will render it moot

    Whats that called? Talking out both sides of your mouth?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    Its really very simple, you said SIPO need more powers, but are unable to outline what powers they need


    Did you miss this?

    I have said way back what we require is a body that is not passive, we need a regulatory body that is vetting and investigating without the need for a complaint. It's oversight body should also be completely cross party to ensure as best as possible that it cannot be controlled politically. It also needs to be able to hand down stiffer sanctions.


    .

    You show a SF proposed bill to address lobbying as an illustration of how they want to do something, but you can't show how its any different to the new SIPO powers given recently to address lobbying

    To show that they set about reform before FG FF got around to it. Of course you wanted to go down a rabbithole of comparing which was not what I was doing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Just commenting on another thread that saw a FB ad recently from SF concerning a fund raising draw - and there was a serious amount of negative comments below it regarding SF's policy or lack of on immigration matters. A lot of it was very pointed. This issue is surely their Achilles Heel.

    I think it has to be a real problem for SF, as it's their core vote that is more likely to be disenchanted. Whereas the vote for other parties is more likely to be drawn from those parts of society less affected and even those who benefit from lots of new blood.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Did you miss this?

    Not at all, I called it out as the waffle that it is



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ha ha, from a poster who claims to want SIPO reformed but then tries to say there was no problems with SIPO whenever you raise the problems evident with SIPO during this term alone.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That was an observation not an argument. It cannot be argued with.

    You want SIPO reforms, but won't accept how it was made patently obvious why it needs reform.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It would be a massive mistake to think everyone who has an issue with the impact of immigration is a far right bigot ready to riot.

    One thing the riots may allow now is a conversation about immigration and I think Leo recognised that when he recently admitted it is time to curb it.

    I don't think any of the major parties will be giving succour to the bigots, votes or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    But SF wont limit immigration.

    There is more chance of Leo doing that now, as you say.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is from 2020

    Sinn Féin does not want open borders. We believe that all states must manage migration. Every state has to have an immigration system with well-functioning rules and regulation that everyone understands and that serves the interest of the people of the country. This system must have regard to how many people are needed to meet shortfalls in the labour market and how many people can be integrated effectively with adequate support and resourcing. Where we do need migrants, such as to fill vacancies in our health system, our migration system should facilitate this.

    The system must also protect people fleeing persecution and war, our international obligations must be fulfilled. We should end the Direct Provision system, treat people with dignity, process applications for asylum in a timely manner and implement the recommendations of the All-Party Oireachtas Committee Report.


    .

    We believe that all states must manage migration. Every state has to have an immigration system with well-functioning rules and regulation that everyone understands and that serves the interest of the people of the country. This system must have regard to how many people are needed to meet shortfalls in the labour market and how many people can be integrated effectively with adequate support and resourcing.


    If this was done properly from the start I don't think we'd be were we are. Perhaps the adult conversation might be had now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,972 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This system must have regard to how many people are needed to meet shortfalls in the labour market and how many people can be integrated effectively with adequate support and resourcing. 

    This ^^^ seems to contradict you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The problem for Francie and Sinn Fein is that the SIPO investigations are not giving them the answers they want.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Pretty much, but is Gerry still a member? Have they disowned him yet? The day is coming when he will be quietly pushed off the stage. Expect that when it comes to giving evidence, Gerry will produce a medical cert for dementia, Alzhiemers or some other illness that means he can't recall.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Having "Regard" is not the same as restricting.

    And they also mention that they must house people fleeing war and persecution.

    There is no tanglible logic in that statement that suggests any form of number control on immigration.

    The text could just as easily be applied to the current FFG govt.



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