Leinster v Munster Match Thread

27-11-2023 10:03am

I think it'll be a relatively painful review session today for a number of Leinster players.

Garry Ringrose's defence needs some serious discussion and examination. He had three awful missed tackles in the first half alone, all of which almost led to Munster tries (the first one did). He shoots up on Zebo that creates the line break for Casey's try. People will argue that's his role, and Henshaw should have been covering across, but to me, he's trying to make these 'king hit' smashes when he shoots up, and he's often just getting the timing wrong or bouncing out of contact.

He had a bad missed tackle on Crowley shortly afterwards that led to the linebreak and Archer ultimately being held up, and had another poor miss on Daly shortly after that again. The stats show he misses a lot of tackles, and I think it's become too ready made an excuse to just attribute it to the role he plays in the system etc. Some of these are just bad reads and bad execution.

I don't agree with the posters who said JVDF had a good game - I thought he was largely ineffective by his standards, and was outplayed by Hodnett. His failure to clear out Crowley when Crowley won a massive turnover in the Munster 22 (after the Porter break up the left) was inexcusable to me. Your openside should be capable of smashing a lock or a prop off the top of a ruck, nevermind a 10 (even if it's something Crowley is very good at).

Buer · 27-11-2023 10:07am

In respect of performances, it was, as mentioned above, fairly sloppy. But I think some people will be fairly pleased with their showings and some very disappointed. These games count for more in an Irish selection consideration, I'd imagine. A lot of guys are up against their direct rivals for spots and will be looking to put down a marker.

With that in mind, I'd say the big winners (relative to where they were coming into the game) were Conan, Frisch, Nash, Frawley and McCarthy. Others like Doris had strong showings (more in the final quarter really) but that won't have changed where they sit in the pecking order at all.

I'd say the losers on the night were Coombes, JOB and Henshaw. Potentially Ringrose too although he had a couple of good moments in the second half.

Conan was just very solid and physical. He looked powerful in contact and, for a guy who has very little rugby in the last 6 months, was still motoring deep into the second half. I didn't expect Frawley to have the game that he did when I started to watch it. He was very tidy in the first half, breaking the line a couple of times, keeping the back line moving with some fairly accurate passing and his kicking both from hand and the tee was good. He made a couple of errors late on (spilled a high catch and kicked it away aimlessly) but he'll be generally very happy.

Frisch and Nash were real sparks in the Munster back line for a lot of the game and got involved repeatedly. They linked up well with Crowley and gave Leinster headaches. Frisch might have benefitted from not having Nankivell beside him as they haven't gelled yet so he was more in step with those around him. Nash is becoming that messy winger that Farrell loves. I'd imagine he has eyes on that Irish squad again and it's fully deserved.

McCarthy grew into the game. He became more of a force in the second half and will be fairly happy with his night's work, one spill aside. He was harshly done for a penalty inside the Munster 22 when Murray rolled it back with his hand clearly which isn't allowed and Busby whistled against McCarthy incorrectly (should still point it out to the referee though). But he was constantly irritating people at the ruck and carried hard throughout, making yards as others started to tire. Thought he got away with a shoulder charge on Ahern though (who was also good).

I thought JOB had something of a nightmare game. Knock ons (two due to terrible passes) and a deliberate slap down that could well have been yellow on another night. He looked nervous as he retreated after that; he knew he was walking a fine line. Hopefully it's just a blip as he's such reliable performer normally. Henshaw was a total non-entity, for me. Just didn't impact the game at all. His major contribution was shooting up for the try which, in turn, resulted in Ringrose shooting up (terribly) due to the dog leg Henshaw was creating. I hope reputations mean nothing and Ngatai or Osborne are given the opportunity to start in the coming weeks.

Coombes was similar to Henshaw but at least got on the ball more. He was completely nullified though, his performance culminating in the braindead penalty that ultimately led to the final Leinster try. Fortunately for him, there isn't really any other viable option at 8 for Munster (as of yet) as his form is still up and down.

27-11-2023 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422878#Comment_121422878

Yeah, Coombes looked visibly frustrated out there. He's a good player, but looks out of sorts at the moment. He was smashed backwards in defence on multiple times, and didn't really impact the game in any other way. Sheehan carries straight through him for his try too.

Nash outplayed JOB, who was guilty of forcing things a few times and just ineffective.

I was impressed by Crowley - he has that kind of cocksure quasi-arrogance you want in a 10, and is a real leader in that Munster side which is pretty incredible for a guy who is just 23.

I thought McCarthy was the best second row on the pitch. Beirne was very good and niggly in disrupting Leinster ball, but didn't really shine elsewhere. McCarthy was by far the most effective carrier of the four starting locks, the leading tackler, claimed a lot of line out ball and was incredibly disruptive to Munster's ruck and maul. Great game on a big stage for another very young player.

aloooof · 27-11-2023 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422878#Comment_121422878

Good post Buer. Only point would be on this:

With that in mind, I'd say the big winners (relative to where they were coming into the game) were Conan, Frisch, Nash, Frawley and McCarthy.

I think Crowley deserves a mention in there too. Really excellent performance, I think he's really solidifying his claim to the starting Irish 10 spot. The first fixture up is a Friday night away in France, which would be a massive game for him.

An aside, but presume there's no update yet on the Ross Byrne injury?

Buer · 27-11-2023 11:46am

I thought Crowley was good. Not as impressive as those I mentioned but certainly good. My post was concentrating on performances relative to current spot in the pecking order though so, as the first choice Irish outhalf, Crowley delivered.

I thought he made some errors (kicked out on the full, was stripped of the ball by Doris behind a ruck and a tad lucky with that last kick which he clearly wasn't happy with himself) but he found his attacking groove in the second half, connecting with those around him. He had one delayed pass to Nash inside that had me fooled and looking for the ball. Some really nice passing. He did freeze after the Murray break though and got caught in two minds which killed the move somewhat.

I think he looked better generally when Murray came on. I thought himself and Frawley had very similar games in terms of performance levels but it's a bigger win for Frawley because it's relative to where they were beforehand.

Neil3030 · 27-11-2023 11:50am

There were many positives for both sides, despite it being a bit of an error-prone game.

But the one that stood out for me was definitely Crowley. He looked like a ten-year veteran out-half. I'll remind people: he's 23. Two years younger than Frawley. Five years younger than Byrne senior and a year younger than Byrne junior.

Anyone who has dipped into the Access Munster content has known how mature a young man he is for some time now. Great to see that translate more and more into a presence on the pitch.

sydthebeat · 27-11-2023 12:08pm

Not looking to put the boot into ringrose, but by god that missed tackle on zebo was absolutely terrible.

posters have been talking about henshaw being out of position as ringrose was trying to shepard the carrier inside, but i dont at all agree with that. It was a simple 3 on 3, all manned up, and ringrose just made a terrible attempt at a tackle. Mainly due actually to his hesitancy in shooting.

as can be seen from this screen shot, the moment crowley passes, the two munster forwards are out of the game. Henshaw is on Scannell and nails him just as he passes. Ringrose at the point of the pass above should have been gone like a shot onto zebo, but he hesitates, and then actually takes a corner flag line as if he's in two minds whether the balls going to zebo or frisch. But JOB has frisch lined up, and both keenan and JGP are in behind to cover Nash outside.

It was incredibly well finished, but ringrose has been very badly shown up here.

letsbefair · 27-11-2023 12:22pm

So a world class player missed a tackle, another in his first match back was rusty. OMG

sydthebeat · 27-11-2023 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423382#Comment_121423382

it wasnt his first game back..... 🙄

aloooof · 27-11-2023 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423382#Comment_121423382

Not all missed tackles are made equal.

I'd love to see the stats for how many of Ringrose's missed tackles actually end with that phase behind the gainline. That'd tell us something about how effective his shooting is (and his missed-tackle stats are something I've defended him in the past over for this very reason).

He had a number here tho that were particularly bad tbh and clearly resulted in, at a minimum, gain line for the attack.

StormForce13 · 27-11-2023 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423395#Comment_121423395

The reference is to Henshaw, and I think that it was.

pickarooney · 27-11-2023 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422869#Comment_121422869

I didn't understand that penalty. The tackled player has clearly released the ball. There's no support and Crowley has hands on it. This should be play on, and Crowley simply needs to pick it up. There's no penalisable offence that I can see

sydthebeat · 27-11-2023 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423587#Comment_121423587

really?? not sure where youre getting that from?

maybe the poster should quote the posts they are apparently replying to?

or maybe they are just making general comments in a vacuum

StormForce13 · 27-11-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423616#Comment_121423616

I'm getting it from the comma between the first part of the sentence (which refers to Ringrose) and the use of the word "another" which refers to another player in your photo who was playing his first game. If you need any more help, just ask.

sydthebeat · 27-11-2023 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423659#Comment_121423659

strange that they would refer to my post, but use a word to describe the player which wasnt attributed to me.

maybe its just projection.....

Clegg · 27-11-2023 1:58pm

Leinster did a bit of a job on Coombes at the weekend. He carried a lot of ball, but was met by double tackles a lot of the time. Reminded me of how we used to target Stander in these games. Identified him as the main threat and stifled him.

Munster are in a better position now as they can play through the backs far more effectively. But they're still limited up front.

aloooof · 27-11-2023 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423796#Comment_121423796

Coombes didn't have a good game by any means, but if he's being met with double-tackles, that's a good thing, and he's fulfilling part of his role, to cause compressions and make more space outside.

Our front-row is the big issue tho. Salanoa might make a difference there if he can get an injury free run together.

aloooof · 27-11-2023 2:11pm

Tbh I felt that was as close as we've come to a fully loaded Leinster team in a long time, and when you consider we were missing some starters, that's a very positive thing.

Our skill levels and handling have significantly improved in the last year and a bit.

Clegg · 27-11-2023 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423837#Comment_121423837

I'm sure there is an element of using Coombes to shorten the defensive line, but I think he was also teed up at various stages to be the big carrier to make metres, but Leinster read it and met him on the gain line.

Munsters second row also struggled in the carrying stakes. Neither Kleyn or Beirne managed to be a big threat. When Munster went tight in Leinsters 22 the defence drove them back on a few occasions.

Buer · 27-11-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423983#Comment_121423983

Would largely agree. Munster looked dangerous off a set play where they had it called and everyone knew their roles for the first few phases. Their moves were really sharp. Play on for a few phases and they didn't look nearly as comfortable though and ended up losing ground on several occasions. They had Leinster on the ropes after the Murray break but the indecision was clear when the ball came back and there was no time to have a structure to work off.

I think the Munster forward carrying has definitely improved in recent times but it's still lacking a one or two more guys who can really break through a tackle or punch a hole in the close exchanges and turn those situations back into go forward ball.

aloooof · 27-11-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423983#Comment_121423983

Ya, look, there's no doubt Leinster's defence is elite. Munster just don't have the power up front, particularly in the front-row, to match them thru that alone. We did see some good handling from out 2nd rows tho iirc. (Beirne's really poor offload aside).

Buer · 27-11-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424282#Comment_121424282

It was interesting to see the pack that Munster went with. That had to be one of the biggest packs a province has ever fielded. If we go on the listed weights from the Munster site the pack had respective weights of 118kg, 105kg, 119kg, 121kg, 116kg, 119kg, 104kg and 117kg.

Would struggle to think of a bigger pack in Irish rugby in recent years. I'm sure there was a game plan designed to utilise them more than we actually saw based around the set piece (or maybe it was picked to address recent scrum issues) but it never really jumped out on the day.

Burkie1203 · 27-11-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423837#Comment_121423837

But if he goes backwards and its slow ball that's giving defende time to get aligned, and be on the front foot then the space outside is pointless.

It was the exact same with Stander. He used to fight for an extra metre every time but the 4 or 5 seconds it took to get the ball back meant Leinster were always able to get organised and get off the defensive line incredibly quickly and stifle Munsters attack.

27-11-2023 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424531#Comment_121424531

It's definitely a heavy pack, but it's a bit lacking on dynamism. Outside of Hodnett & Barron (and Ahern from his 20s days but not as evident now in senior rugby) you wouldn't say there was much quickness about it at all. The starting props are slow and poor carriers. Beirne is a good enough carrier, but not quick over the ground by any means (and has looked a little sluggish post RWC IMO). Kleyn is not an impactful carrier, and Coombes is (usually) effective in tight channels, but certainly hasn't much pace about him.

Munster have young guys like Gleeson and Quinn though who are still big units but have more pace and acceleration about them.

By contrast, at their best all of Porter, Sheehan, McCarthy, Conan, VDF and Doris have good acceleration and better carrying ability. Furlong's best days as a carrier look behind him. Ryan can be impactful on occasion; he had one huge carry on 45 mins where he carries right through Jean Kleyn, bouncing him to the ground.

aloooof · 27-11-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424531#Comment_121424531

Bigger doesn't always translate to more power / dynamism tho. By way of example (albeit different positions) I'd be fairly certain Archer is a fair bit heavier than Sheehan. I'm pretty sure we'd both prefer the latter to carry from inside the 5m line every day of the week. Or anywhere on the pitch, really.

Munster's whole game plan now includes higher passes per phase, from both backs and forwards, and it looks to be really working and means a reliance on tight carry's isn't as important as it otherwise would be.

Some of Beirne's late passing was excellent.

aloooof · 27-11-2023 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424592#Comment_121424592

One thing I don't think you can criticise Munster for in recent times is slow ruck ball.

Dubinusa · 27-11-2023 5:02pm

I think Beirne and Kleyn did ok. But the Leinster 2nd rows were better. They are better carriers, imo. Coombes is a good platter but he's not at the level of Doris nor Conan.

Hodnett is a serious player. I always thought Kendellen would Make the national squad but, Hodnett is better. Ahern at 6 gives Munster the edge at L/o. Plus he's a big lad. If only he was more powerful?

Crowley is very impressive. In my mind he's way better than anything I have seen from Carberry. He does have the confidence needed.

Leo should and will not be happy. Leinster played error strewn rugby. Some very poor mistakes. Not sure about anyone else but, Ngati right now is a better option than Henshaw. I expect to see Henshaw this week. He does need minutes and needs form.

AbusesToilets · 27-11-2023 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423611#Comment_121423611

It was a nonsense call. Crowley just had to lift the ball, but he held it on the ground. There was no impediment from the tackled player.

Buer · 28-11-2023 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121424639#Comment_121424639

I wasn't necessarily talking in terms of dynamism but just in respect of utilising that size effectively. For example, I'd have thought that Munster would look to implement more catch and drive plays to suck in Leinster defenders before moving the ball. But a lot of set piece ball appeared to be popped down to the scrum half. To me, that's probably shooting yourself in the foot somewhat given those forwards are then on the move and being asked to cover a lot of ground very quickly.

A pack that big will have specific strengths in tight exchanges but may not be incredibly mobile. I don't think it was a coincidence that Leinster started to really win the collisions and several breakdown turnovers in the final quarter when there were several tired Munster bodies out there.

theVersatile · 28-11-2023 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425087#Comment_121425087

JOB literally keeps his top hand on the ball at all times, and you can actually see him reach back with his arm to keep a hold of it when he realises Crowley is over it.

It's textbook holding on - this is a weird decision to be giving grief about.

AbusesToilets · 28-11-2023 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427189#Comment_121427189

Watching it live, it looked harsh. JOB is at a full arm extension placing the ball, with Crowley over him in dominant position, but he never tries to lift the ball. Looked like a fair competition and play on, but watching it again, I can see the ref viewinf the combo of VdF and JOB as impeding Crowley.

Neil3030 · 28-11-2023 4:04pm

If I'm a Leinster fan, I'm asking what the heck Joe McCarthy is doing, first man approaching the ruck, totally misreads the direction of the tackle and lazily leaves himself offside and ineffective. No effort to get back onside and help.

I'm asking what on earth is going on with vdF. His carrying is way down and that clearout on a ten was as willowy as they come (although not the ideal angle to start from; McCarthy should have been first clean, vdF optional support).

And I'm then asking why JOB didn't read the situation unfolding—with the only viable cleaners in offside positions beside the ruck—and pop the pass to JGP off the ground.

Respectfully, Leinster have a lot of things to tighten up on before they should be wasting energy wondering if a referee's call was harsh.

Podge_irl · 28-11-2023 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429045#Comment_121429045

If I'm a Leinster fan, I'm asking what the heck Joe McCarthy is doing, first man approaching the ruck, totally misreads the direction of the tackle and lazily leaves himself offside and ineffective. No effort to get back onside and help.

Oh god, unwanted flashbacks

Anyway, I'm not complaining about it. But I would observe that I have seen those kind of attempts not rewarded multiple times precisely cause there appears to be no attempt to lift. Crowley did well and Leinster did poorly though.

pickarooney · 28-11-2023 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427189#Comment_121427189

His arm is at full stretch and his fingertips are on the ball. A man standing up with two hands on the ball is not going to have the slightest difficulty claiming it. It's immaterial in the grand scheme of things but it's a bugbear of mine that defenders 'win' penalties rather than attackers conceding them.

Dubinusa · 28-11-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429045#Comment_121429045

As a Leinster fan, I'm concerned with the entire sloppiness of our play. Very very poor.

Neil3030 · 28-11-2023 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429388#Comment_121429388

Much is being made of JN's impending influence on Leisnter's D. But I also wonder if perhaps a small regression in attacking philosophy might also be needed. If you go back and watch that Crowley jackal again, you have Doris on the short side wing, and I think the nearest player on the open side is Frawley. Both players hold their width, despite the ruck being under-resourced. I have no doubt that heads would have rolled for this back in Schmidt's day. Granted there is upside to a positive, wide attack, and if vdF and McCarthy clean that ruck Leinster are in a great position to attack a resetting defense. But it is a bit of a balancing act, and sometimes a pendulum can swing too far in one direction.

28-11-2023 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429457#Comment_121429457

I agree with your general point, and think at times the ambition in attack needs to be reined in a bit, but disagree with that Crowley one as an example. As you'd rightly pointed out above; that ruck wasn't under resourced, just McCarthy makes a bad read and then JVDF makes a limp attempt at the clear out. It's not acceptable, because that was a really strong attacking position they were in there.

FWIW though, Porter was probably one of the last guys you wanted making the initial break too; he quasi butchered it at that point, because I think there was a chance there, with some composure to score off that phase when you look at the players in support.

Leinster v Munster Match Thread

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