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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #2492
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431389#Comment_121431389

    Annnnnnd we are back, some didn't bother their hole to read those, did they ;)

    Section 2 in the 1989 act, "Actions likely to stir up hatred." Would you say violence is an action? Take your time, it will come to you.



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    #2493
    DarkJager21
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432585#Comment_121432585

    Well let's make not being a **** even more attractive for them. Cut their dole and kick them out of the social housing they are in - no job, no house - off to spike island you **** until you're ready to be a functioning member of society. I've no problem leaving these scum sleeping in the gutters where they belong, the only problem is we've nobody to clean those gutters of them when they stay too long.



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    #2494
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431760#Comment_121431760

    The irony, you say that it is anti-democratic for say this that or the other. The most anti-democratic thing is the suppression of free speech in society.

    Any kind of censorship, or stopping citizens (even the ones you don't like) from expressing their opinions is anti-democratic.

    This has nothing to do with human rights, you are talking pure waffle there.



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    #2495
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433706#Comment_121433706

    I'm well aware of what's in the legislation. If you could point out exactly what agitators on social media/ in public can be charged with for calling on people to ' get rid of immigrants'

    Or what they can be charged with when they say 'get into town and cause havoc '



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    #2496
    DarkJager21
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433771#Comment_121433771

    Tough ****, why should scum like this get my taxes in welfare every week?


    And I'll expand on this point to touch on the "Ireland for the Irish" bullshit that was spouted here. What makes Mary can't close her legs and her 6 feral children a more suitable candidate for a house than someone fleeing genuine struggle? Some lazy homegrown waster who's been on the list for 20 years and hasn't done **** for themselves but were expected to cheer them because they are "Irish"? **** them and equally **** anyone coming in here for asylum or otherwise who thinks we are a soft target.



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    #2497
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433774#Comment_121433774

    So you want someone who says there are too many immigrants charged with an offense?



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    #2498
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433774#Comment_121433774

    Sure thing, I can help you along as you seem to be struggling to understand this.

    For the first, Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989:

    1.—(1) In this Act—

    “broadcast” means the transmission, relaying or distribution by wireless telegraphy or by any other means or by wireless telegraphy in conjunction with any other means of communications, sounds, signs, visual images or signals, intended for direct reception by the general public whether such communications, sounds, signs, visual images or signals are actually received or not;


    “distribute” means distribute to the public or a section of the public and cognate words shall be construed accordingly;


    “hatred” means hatred against a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation;


    “publish” means publish to the public or a section of the public and cognate words shall be construed accordingly;


    “recording” means any record from which visual images or sounds may, by any means, be reproduced, and references to the distribution, showing or playing of a recording are to its distribution, showing or playing to the public or a section of the public and “distribute”, “show” and “play”, and cognate words, in relation to a recording, shall be construed accordingly;


    “written material” includes any sign or other visual representation.

    So, that one is covered. Pretty easy to understand if you just looked.

    For the second, you can use the same act above to cover that, and for their actions...rioting and destruction, assault and general scumbaggary is illegal.

    So...AGAIN, there is existing legislation to cover what happened.



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    #2499
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433976#Comment_121433976

    Not what it says.



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    #2500
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433990#Comment_121433990

    And again, as has been pointed out hundreds of times, legislation is continuously updated amended and changed. As you have no issue with incitement to hatred, you shouldn't have an issue with this updated act.

    Btw, section 1 of the Incitement to Hatred act 89, doesn't contain any offences.



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    #2501
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433996#Comment_121433996

    You asked what agitators can be charged with if they same there are too many immigrants, implying that the current legislation doesn't cover this. This means you think saying there are too many immigrants is wrong and needs to be legislated against.



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    #2502
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433408#Comment_121433408

    Absolute and utter drivel. Noone is going to care what is in your WhatsApp messages unless you are regularly texting someone about plots to kill all immigrants or to kill the President. The hysteria about this bill is off the wall nonsense. Only the most severe types of speech that constitute incitement to violence or hatred would be criminalised under the Bill.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2503
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433530#Comment_121433530

    It's not censorship legislation. It's about criminalising extreme forms of hate speech that incite violence and/or hate.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2504
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 86,157 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Helen and Leo will really push hard to pass this before more details of the stabber from last week is revealed

    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #2505
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433763#Comment_121433763

    Not at all.

    Extreme hate speech often can and does need to be restricted to protect democracy. This is accepted in all Human Rights Law. There is no such thing as absolute free speech.

    Actually this law is partially being proposed for human rights reasons.

    It's not my fault you don't understand that.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2506
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434024#Comment_121434024

    No, Section one doesn't contain any offence, that would be section 2 which comes after 1, you would have seen the offences if you read the legislation.

    2.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person—

    (a) to publish or distribute written material,

    (b) to use words, behave or display written material—

    (i) in any place other than inside a private residence, or

    (ii) inside a private residence so that the words, behaviour or material are heard or seen by persons outside the residence,

    or

    (c) to distribute, show or play a recording of visual images or sounds,

    I do of coutse take issue with incitement to hatred, which is covered in the 1989 act.

    This new act is is nothing to do with that, as you well know but play ignorant of, again and again.



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    #2507
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434129#Comment_121434129

    Well no that's true. This new law is updating the 1989 Act. And there are many reasons for that including the 1989 Act didn't foresee internet communications and also very difficult to get prosecutions under

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2508
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434109#Comment_121434109

    What the hell is extreme hate speech? Is this different to normal hate speech?

    Where is it accepted in Human Rights law, suppression of free speech (even the ones you don't like) is crucial to any functional democracy. You are fine with suppression of views that you don't like, and you'd hide behind that before actually engaging in any kind of discourse. Run and hide tactics.

    So where exactly does this new law include human rights as the reason for it? Go on, show us...I won't get my hopes up though.



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    #2509
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434146#Comment_121434146

    It doesn't need to include Internet communications, it always has "broadcast" there intentionally for that. Bloody hell.



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    #2510
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434069#Comment_121434069

    You do understand that if a Garda see's a message that is illegal or deemed illegal then they have to act? That is the reason the Limerick speeding ticket case grew so large. Every time they arrested and seized another Garda's phone they found messages requesting "squares" for speeding and other offenses which led to more arrests. I am aware of a case where an image was posted in a Whatsapp group that one member of that group found offensive, everyone in that group received a reprimand from work even if they never commented or reacted to the image.

    The people advocating for this legislation may have good intentions but the road to hell is paved by those same intentions. Can you define severe hate as opposed to regular hate?



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    #2511
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434274#Comment_121434274

    Severe as in "kill all immigrants" - non severe as "bleedin immigrants takin jobs"

    It's common sense really. I'm not sure why you are discussing some workplace incident. Not relevant.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2512
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434274#Comment_121434274

    Yes,

    The elephant in the room, where this legislation is concerned, will be what defines "hate"



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    #2513
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434307#Comment_121434307

    Do you not think if you posted or shouted "I'm going to burn down the provision center up the road" that there is sufficient legislation to have you charged already?



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    #2514
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434172#Comment_121434172

    Article 10 European Convention of Human Rights. The right to freedom of expression has limitations. I have pointed this out several times. Not my fault you haven't actually reading my posts.

    The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has been calling for the 1989 law to be updated for a number of years now. You can find reports with calls for Ireland for many years.

    https://www.ohchr.org/en/treaty-bodies/cerd

    The law also meets Irelands obligation to meet legal human rights obligations under The European Framework Decision on Combating Racism and Xenophobia which is also very clear that combating racism and xenophobia is a human rights issue.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2515
    freebritney
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434307#Comment_121434307

    The reason I posted the workplace story is that under the new legislation the person could have gone to the guards instead of HR and said that the image caused them offence. The other group members could have been charged instead of receiving a workplace reprimand.

    If you cannot see how this legislation can and will be used to shut down free speech then you are not being honest in the debate.



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    #2516
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434180#Comment_121434180

    Broadcast is meaningless in terms of modern communications.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2517
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434366#Comment_121434366

    No. The 1989 Act has proven extremely difficult to actually have people prosecuted for incitement to hatred.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2518
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434395#Comment_121434395

    Absolute bunkum and drivel. The law will only be criminalising very serious forms of hate speech.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2519
    Bigmac1euro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    There’s nonsense flying around social media saying this would give the guards the power to sit you down and force you to enter your login credentials. Be it your phone/laptop/tablet.

    is that true?



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    #2520
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434415#Comment_121434415

    What's the source?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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