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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Independent Senator Sharon Keoghan (ex-FF and ex-Meath County Council) not impressed with this legislation's draconian provisions:




  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball




  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    All of it, reminds me of what I would imagine Germany was like in the late 30s/40s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    This is standard with all criminal investigations. The Gardai examine it. If they feel it meets the prosecutable threshold they goto the DPP. If they also agree it goes to the Courts.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,038 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Naive much I think, we can all see the creeping agenda a mile off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch




  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Oh come on... that's a bit extreme now. Plus I doubt you were actually there at the time, you'd be a bit long in the tooth haha.

    If we had these laws then, there wouldn't have been a Hitler elected because such a person would never be allowed to campaign. They would just be arrested for being in non compliance with this legislation or at least as I said before so many cases would be brought forward even without conviction it would derail and stop anyone. So another benefit of this legislation is that it would prevent people running for political office if they had views outside the mainstream they would just be fighting off constant legal processes leaving the field open to good people to run.



  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, its like beauty in that respect.......in the eye of the beholder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    You do realise this law can and will be used to prosecute anyone who has a view which conflicts to what the state deems to be the correct view?

    Which is in complete contradiction to the democractic rights of citizens and free speech.

    If you like to be told what you can and can't think then wonderful, this is the perfect law for you. Many of us thankfully don't want that or the abuse it will cause both citizens and the judicial system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,193 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    If they had views outside the mainstream? And that should render them unqualified to run for public office?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Weimar Germany had censorship laws which were used to try to suppress the NSDAP. The Nazis's own censorship then was an elaboration on Weimar's speech laws and in fact Hitler took great pleasure in this turnabout - he was able to suppress and censor the people who had done same thing to him in the 1920s and failed.

    You can't get rid of political problems by just declaring them illegal or suppressing them. We've already tried to do that and its lead to weird consequences like a wildcat riot in Dublin city centre.

    Now the Government is just doubling down. Unintended consequences of one kind or another will result coming from different directions.

    As I said in a different discussion about Brexit, the whole Brexit thing took a lot of people by surprise because they had told themselves for years that there was no point of view other than their own. When you hold a fake political monopoly you are constantly vulnerable to surprises from out of left field. Brexit, Trump, and a million other things to come.

    Get ready for loads of shocks and weird happenings in the years ahead thanks to a political system which won't allow any kind of organic feedback or permit compromises.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,888 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Sounds like the glory days of section 31, although SF were allowed to run just not be interviewed



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Well no they wouldn't be automatically unqualified but this legislation could be used to frustrate a person's attempts to run a campaign for votes as it opens them up to being subject to garda investigations it would render running pretty much impossible for an ordinary person. But this would only be used against those with minority views like I said previously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    " As I said in a different discussion about Brexit, the whole Brexit thing took a lot of people by surprise because they had told themselves for years that there was no point of view other than their own. When you hold a fake political monopoly you are constantly vulnerable to surprises from out of left field. Brexit, Trump, and a million other things to come. "

    Plus the recent electoral success of Geert Wilders comes to mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    Minority views like:

    - We've had enough, we can't accept water charges.

    - I think we should do something about climate change

    - I think it would be good if we had contraceptives in Ireland

    <Insert and protest we have had in the past here>

    Yeah, that sounds like a great idea, especially if you are in politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭freebritney


    Okay, do you acknowledge that under the new legislation ALAN SHATTER could walk into a Garda station and make a formal complaint that something I said or posted (From the River to the Sea) was hateful towards him even though it wasn't racial, sexual, homophobic or any of the other defined forms of hate speech.

    Could a Garda agree with your complaint and arrest me under the new bill?

    In the course of that investigation could the Gardaí seize my phone, laptop and other electronic devices?

    If I refuse to hand over the passwords can I be charged for this offence?

    If the DPP agrees with the Gardai that what i said was hateful can I then be sent forward for trial?

    Will it ultimately be up to a judge to decide if what I said to you was hateful or not?


    It's exactly the scenario I posted earlier.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    What you label " minority opinions " is always subject to change; back in the 1980s following the 1983 abortion referendum the " pro choice view " would of being a " minority opinion " thankfully there was no campaign to go after and prosecute anyone who held a " pro choice " point of view under the guise of doing it for the common good.

    Everyone is fully entitled to their own point of view on political issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Utter utter hysterical nonsense. This law is not in any way at all about prosecuting anyone for their opinion or thoughts.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    None of that would be illegal or prosecutable. You are now spreading disinformation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    Equal marriage rights for LGBT people and the decriminalisation of homosexual acts were also minority views for many years in this country. But good public representatives like David Norris and many in the Labour Party represented that minority view and won the general public over.

    Today's minority could be tomorrow's majority. Careful what you wish (and legislate) for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,193 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    You say that like minority views are a bad thing



  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭Astartes


    One thing that does amuse me about this is the prospect of crazy "martyrs" this will create. Off to jail for calling a female politician a pig in a wig or somesuch.

    Bitta craic at least.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra



    David Norris actively supported the 1989 Bill after he was able to amend it.

    His contribution amended the legislation because of threats to execute gay people and as he highlighted at the time the Hirschfield centre was subjected to an arson attack.


    I have not had the opportunity to acquaint the Minister directly with all of this information but I would like to read for the information of the House and the Minister, a piece of literature recently received by me. It is headed "National Socialist Party: Smash AIDS Blitzkrieg":

    In Ireland, AIDS is being spread amongst all normal people by the Gay AIDS spreaders and the Junkies. The Government is afraid to tell you the truth. Thousands in Ireland are infected — hundreds of AIDS deaths have been covered up and the number dying will double every six months.

    Thanks to Queers, Junkies and Negroes visiting here, all of you are now at risk from the AIDS Black Death, right down to the pregnant women ... and a baby can be born with AIDS!!! Horrific. AIDS is as deadly as nuclear radiation. Help us in the National Socialist Party to break the conspiracy of silence among the knee-jerk liberals in Government. Join us. Act Now. Only we will tell you the truth. Only we will save you and your family from this Scourge of God.

    Our "Smash AIDS Blitzkrieg" proposes: 1. Enforce the Law — ten years for homosexuals; 2. Enforce stringent AIDS-testing on all immigrants; 3. Intern all junkies, pushers etc., as Enemies of the People; 4. Daily testing of the Blood Bank for the AIDS virus; 5. Suspect Discos, Gay Bars, clubs, etc., to be burned down; 6. Execution of deliberate AIDS spreaders.

    We were (and are) the first to commence a smash AIDS blitz. We will shortly issue a Guide on AIDS — the Real truth, not politicians' lies! We will tell you how to protect yourself, family, friends. For this, the National Socialist Party requires volunteers, funds, help!

    Contact immediately — most urgent — SAE to:

    Michael J. McGrath, Chief Lieutenant, National Socialist Party, 18 Dominic Street, Kilkenny City.

    That is just one example. Similar material over the years has been sent to my employers. I speak, as I indicated to the House, with some feeling because some five or six years ago the principles outlined in this inflammatory document were, in fact, acted upon. The morning before I gave evidence to the Commission on Penal Reform, chaired by the late Sean MacBride, I was in the Hirschfeld centre when I noticed sparks through a plexiglas dome on the roof. I went onto the roof with fire fighting equipment of an electrical kind because I thought that some of the sophisticated monitoring equipment we put on the roof to protect it against fire and burglary had short circuited. When I got onto the roof I found that the whole flat roof, which was made of tarmacadam and asphalt, had been covered with a thin film of petrol, and there was a full sized drum of petrol and two churns full of explosives on the roof. The people initiating this incendiary attack had got down to the ground again and thrown up firelighters. The entire roof was beginning to blaze. The intention, quite clearly, was to ignite the roof, cause the two kegs to explode, blow the roof off and send the contents of the oil barrel down the building. Within 20 minutes from the moment at which I spotted this incident there would have been 200 people attending a discotheque. Two hundred people could have been literally incinerated to death.

    This material constitutes a clear and explicit incitement. It could not possibly be clearer. Item No. 5 on their agenda is "suspect discos, gay bars, clubs etc. to be burned down". I am sure this is not the Minister's wish or intention in any way. I would not wish it to be thought for a second that I did feel that the Minister would want to be associated with or allow this kind of sentiment abroad. But it is perfectly clear that the absence of a specific clear provision on sexual orientation will render this legislation absolutely impotent in dealing with this material. I am somewhat surprised, in view of the fact that it comes as a consequence of certain international obligations, that this amendment was not immediately accepted. I can give certain instances of countries in which this legislation or something very like it has been accepted.


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    As Nationality is one of the grounds and characteristics of hate speech plus possessing hateful material is a ground Included.

    If this new app which Identifies Israeli products to boycott was found on someone,s phone after a guarda search of phone I would not be surprised if such an app would be deemed as " possessing hateful material" and subject to prosecution.

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/no-conspiracy-behind-irelands-new-hate-speech-laws-says-justice-minister-1471640.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    Interesting history there. Wasn't aware of it. Thanks for sharing. My point was more to tackle another poster's stating that the new hate speech bill could be used to shut down minority views. That point of view I find chilling. Unlikely that the bill will be used to do so but in general I'm suspicious of any law that could be manipulated to punish those who espouse unpopular views.



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