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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #2642
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438883#Comment_121438883

    ell that depends on whether it is an offence under Section 2 of the prohibition of incitement to hatred act 89.

    Pretty sure if you and someone in your household share something, ye are on the same page and they are not going to be making a complaint about you to authorities.....



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    #2643
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438871#Comment_121438871

    Exactly.

    Hate, like love, is indefineable.

    Its an emotion, a feeling...its one thing to one person and something else to another.

    And thats the rock on which this absurd legislation will, ultimately, perish.



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    #2644
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438883#Comment_121438883


    Not someone, but at least 10 people.



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    #2645
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438907#Comment_121438907

    I read the 89 act and it states "intended for direct reception by the general public" and as far as I'm aware the proposed change in legislation stipulates that the "hate speech" can be privately owned with no intention of public dispersion, or a person's own opinion shared online. All that's missing now is "thought crime"



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    #2646
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438976#Comment_121438976

    Yes.

    We are approaching "Gulag Archipelago" territory.



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    #2647
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437996#Comment_121437996

    Not true. The Bill doesn't mention "hate speech" at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2648
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438519#Comment_121438519

    I answered your question.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2649
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438699#Comment_121438699

    Again no. Not true. This Bill has nothing to do with people's opinions.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2650
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438736#Comment_121438736

    They probably could but the current legislation has been found unfit for purpose which is part of the reason it needs updating.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2651
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438776#Comment_121438776

    Your awareness is incorrect and misinformed "hate speech"is not mentioned in the Bill at all

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2652
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,451 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439107#Comment_121439107

    Of course you did...



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    #2653
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439122#Comment_121439122

    So why is every news outlet in the country and outside it talking about new "hate speech" laws 🤷‍♂️



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    #2654
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438883#Comment_121438883

    No -

    A) It would be very unlikely to meet the prosecutable Threshold of the 1989 Act and the 2022 Bill

    B) "Hate Speech" isn't mentioned in the 1989 Act or in the 2022 Bill

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2655
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438928#Comment_121438928

    This claim makes no sense. The Incitelement to Prohibition of Hatred Act 1989 never defined hatred and never perished

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2656
    1800_Ladladlad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭1800_Ladladlad


    https://twitter.com/FreeSpeechIre/status/1730210788101468264

    Its madness...



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    #2657
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438976#Comment_121438976

    If something is shared online, it's not private now is it?



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    #2658
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439158#Comment_121439158

    No definition of hate in current legislation either. Hasn't been a problem has it?



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    #2659
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439142#Comment_121439142

    Because

    A) "Hate speech" is a concept used widely now internationally - Council if Europe though notes there is no specific definition internationally though their committee of ministers describe it as "understood as all types of expression that incite, promote, spread or justify violence, hatred or discrimination against a person or group of persons, or that denigrates them, by reason of their real or attributed personal characteristics or status such as “race”,[2] colour, language, religion, nationality, national or ethnic origin, age, disability, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. "

    B) The beginning of the legislative process roughly 3 or 4 years ago used the term

    C) The legislation has considerably changed since the beginning of the process

    D) Lazy journalism

    E) Unfortunately a significant portion of the populace argues over legislation that it hasn't even bothered to read

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2660
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439154#Comment_121439154

    It resulted in very few convictions....less that a dozen in 20 years if my memory serves me. Mainly due to inability to define hatred.

    So it did, essentially perish. Hence this clumsey and ill concieved attempt to replace it.

    Which, for the same reasons, will also fail.



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    #2661
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439275#Comment_121439275

    Indeed. The 1989 Act isn't fit for purpose which is why it needs updating.

    Can you share the source for your claim about why there were so few convictions please? I am not aware of this claim up until you made it and would like to read more.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2662
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439305#Comment_121439305

    Firstly, this is an attempt to replace a bad law with an even worse law.

    Until hatred is defined in the legislation, it will continue to have a coach and horses driven through it. Not only that, it will, inevitably result in a tsunami of litigation from assorted cranks who cannot accept criticism.

    My claim re the limited number of convictions under the 1989 act is rooted in a document submitted by the Law Society to the Dept of Justice a few years ago. I haven't the time nor the inclination to hunt it out right now, but its online somewhere.



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    #2663
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439189#Comment_121439189

    In laymans terms explain to me what this new legislation let's gardai/courts do that they haven't been able to do to date. I'm not being obtuse I just have zero time nor desire to sift through pages of convoluted legal jargon.



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    #2664
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439332#Comment_121439332

    If you cannot even read the proposed legislation, why would anyone try to explain the differences to you! Not being smart.

    For a start, the new legislation has incitement to violence, which we do not have with existing legislation. For example, any person encouraging, inciting people to go out last Thursday and cause mayhem in Dublin, what can they be charged with?

    Just say, some arsehole is inciting people to damage a direct provision centre, set it on fire, which has been seen, what can we currently charge them with? Nothing is the answer.

    Do you think there should be a law covering those people who are calling for violence against certain minorities?

    Let's imagine someone calling for people to go out and assault travellers, or burn their homes? Do you think we should have laws against that? Because currently we don't



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    #2665
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439400#Comment_121439400

    Thanks,

    So what are we basing incitment on? What are the proposed criteria to get prosecuted for incitment? Do I need to be calling people to arms? Or If I share on opinion online? If I make a meme/joke about a situation? If I disagree with a mainstream opinion? Or is just, possibly anything.



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    #2666
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439454#Comment_121439454


    Do you not know how the Irish justice system works? It will be responsibility of a judge or jury to determine the answers to those questions.



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    #2667
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439504#Comment_121439504

    Exactly, it will be up to a judge or jury if wrong think is involved.



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    #2668
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439504#Comment_121439504

    What could go wrong with that 🤷‍♂️🤦 say if I disagree with something that the political party in charge is pushing, could I not be seen as inciting dissent? "Hate" and "incitment" are very very broad terms for anything judicial.



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    #2669
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439330#Comment_121439330

    Oh right OK so there's no source to the claim of the actual reason you put forward

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2670
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439517#Comment_121439517

    Disinformation again

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2671
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439548#Comment_121439548


    Under what current law, or proposed Bill, is "inciting dissent" illegal?



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