Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I don't think you are blinkered, just that you view it all through a western lens and expect them to think and act as westerners do.

One of the last vestiges of the European colonial legacy in that region was the education of their rich kids in European universities, where many of them aped their masters and went home with the latest trend of socialism, giving rise to movements like the PLO and so forth.

That colonial influence is long over and replaced by local movements steeped in their own historical beliefs rather than rich kid European Marxists or any European political perspective.

I don't blame the Palestinians for Hamas, the voting population in 2004 or 2005 or whenever, yes.

I understand they haven't had the option since, I also understand that any civilian that stands against them, or even seems to be opposed to them, are under serious risk. It's impossible for people in that situation. But then, what is the answer? It's obviously better for Gazan civilians to be free of Hamas, have a leadership that doesn't treat them as human shields and pawns in their game.

When it comes to Netanyahu, he has always put himself out there as the man to defend Israel against their neighbours who are out to destroy them. I'm no fan of his, but I can understand their mindset, that they believe in someone who says they will keep them safe. I'm sure there are many many Israelis that don't want him there. I spoke with an Israeli woman this time last year, or thereabouts, wherever he came back into power, and she was disgusted.

But they are all stuck with the leadership they haven't the moment, unless someone comes along that can solve it.

You can’t!

as with many conflicts, ideological conflicts cannot be won. It takes years, negotiations, give and take on both sides, until understanding occurs. Bombing people into submission, creates stronger ideological followers.

Israel cannot win this conflict ultimately. I’m not anti-Israel contrary to your previous statement. Israel are its people. I am anti-Israel policy in relation to the abuse of Palestinians within its borders. The Israeli government is condoning abuse of individuals. Paying vigilantes (Jewish) to steal land with IDF backing. That is not right in ANY civilised country.

There are many great Jewish people across the world who agree with me on this, yes I know others disagree.

israel has a right to defend itself but it does NOT have a right to cause genocide, to keep people in a massive concentration camps.

Why would that happen?

Maybe Gallant was negligent in not hitting more decisively over the last month. A warning to civilians also alerts Hamas.

Arguably a mistake but civilian loss must be as small as possible.

You cannot use the excuse that warning civilians warns Hamas. The onus is on Israel to preserve life and protect civilians. It's only under imminent danger where civilian casualties are accepted. Like bombing a refugee camp to take out a Hamas bunker.... the bunker was not an imminent threat to Israel. The weren't loading missiles into a launcher that Israel had to take out in a split second decision to prevent the loss of innocent Israeli lives etc...

Do you honestly believe civilian losses are as small as possible? Considering Israel has start of the art weapon systems?

Do you think Israel have minimized civilian causalities as best they can?

Are you deliberately ignoring all the settlements built in the West bank? They are even planning on adding to these settlements now, This makes a two state solution a distant reality. I dont think when two peoples are fighting over the same land that it is honest to claim only one side has made this problem.

But but but

So the settlements in the West Bank, they protect Israel against which neighbors?

The more they expand the land, the closer they get to neighboring borders.

Think Russia attacking Ukraine because of the risk of NATO, if they had taken Ukraine, they would have an additional 4 NATO countries boarding mainland Russia. So occupy land to protect yourself by getting closer to your enemy? WTF kinda logic is that?

And building settlements on the area (not a neutral or buffer zone) places your own citizens closer to your neighbours.

It's madness to use that as an excuse, do you not agree?

What's next, take Jordan and Iraq and then complain that Iran is their neighbour?

Oh we better attack Iran to protect us now.

It is completely impossible to believe these people when they say they don't support the West Bank settlements when they break world records in how fast they add seventeen buts to defend them.

Well, that poll that was posted here says Palestinians largely favor Hamas, so they want them to succeed.

Recall that after the last election in Gaza, Hamas murdered their opponents in the PA that won seats. No one protected those PA politicians in Gaza, either. So there was very strong support for Hamas then, and today, in Gaza and in the minds of Palestinians.

If you've read Hamas' charter, they don't want to live a life that's safe and free. Much like your average Russian citizen, the Gazans are content to be human shields or become martyrs for their cause of killing all Jews worldwide.

They tried and failed - which proves my point. You are 2 for 2 in examples of why it is very easy to write... target the leadership but in practice, the examples show it doesn't work out that way in practice - otherwise countries could just get rid of conventional forces. Of course they don't.

You said an army like any other, you didn't say must be modern, but when I provide a modern example you still want to try to point score off 1940 references?

When your own posts contradict (Israel to declare a ceasefire and keep attacking!) and undermine your own argument, there's no need for me to add more at this point.

You shared your concept, posters can see what you've outlined and my critique of it.

You consider 6000 children killed a small loss? I'm absolutely baffled at that.

Even the Americans are telling Israel to be more careful. They are hardly saying that if no other army would have been as careful.

The battle for Mosul had an even higher population density than the Gaza strip but the civilian death toll was 11000 over 9 months. Israel managed that figure in a month.

You can judge members of Hamas by the fact that they murdered, tortured raped, burnt, and beheaded people. Nothing to do with the "environment in which it exists" surely?

Well they were being used as human shields by ISIS. Over the course of the 9 months a million were evacuated. Even at that, it would be the same population density as in Gaza right now. So the excuse that the high civilian death toll is due to the population density is ridiculous when compared to the battle of Mosul. Brutal terrorists, human shields, same population density, same western weapons being used. It's not like Israeli smart bombs are less smart than the Americans etc...

There's scant if any evidence Israel is trying in anyway to keep civilian casualties at a minimum.