BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

bk · 30-11-2023 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437598#Comment_121437598

I agree, but I get the impression it may have been contract related.

Just a theory on my part. But it is notable that the contract they had with the original Leap system operator ran out this past year and that they seem to have decided to rip out the entire old system and replace it with a new one.

It makes me wonder if either the contract with the old operator was too restrictive and they were asking for too much money for any changes or alternatively the old system was too poorly designed and thus difficult to add new features too.

It is unusual to completely start over with a new system and operated like this. In London, I believe they were able to roll it out with the existing operators and Oyster system, just an addition to it.

Im guessing there might be an interesting story behind the scenes here.

transportrian · 30-11-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437562#Comment_121437562

It sounds as if they might be going with a more Dutch style with OV Chipkaart, Contactless/OV Pay, and QR codes. The OV system is probably more applicable to Ireland and the one to aspire to than London's system as it is national like our leap card. The only thing is they don't have as is mentioned, a virtual card of the OV card on your phone like they have in Hong Kong, LA, SF, Chicago which would be like adding the leap card to your phone rather than just using your debit card on Apple Pay.

It'll be interesting to see what methods they go with but having options in payment is good as different ways suit different travel needs and people's preferences!

L1011 · 30-11-2023 10:59pm

The OV card requiring a massive deposit for a short train trip is a huge issue that needs to be figured out if we do an equivalent national system. I do not want to have to have the cost of a standard class trip to Tralee on my Leap card to go to Clonsilla.

bk · 01-12-2023 12:43am

I wouldn’t read too much into Leap being national. I do agree they will take inspiration from multiple countries.

While Leap is national, it actually works quite differently in Dublin, then it does in Cork and the other cities and very different again outside the cities.

For instance the Cork, Limerick, etc. city services don’t yet have the 90 minute ticket, daily and weekly capping, right hand validators or the ability to pay for child fares with an adult leap card like you can in Dublin.

I’d say Leap is basically designed for Dublin, modelled after Oyster in London and then very poorly implemented in the rest of the country as an afterthought.

If I was to predict, I’d say they will end up with broadly two different Leap modes, how it works in the cities and then everywhere else.

Dublin, Cork, etc. cities will work like London, 90 minute fares, daily and weekly capping, all available via either physical leap card, virtual leap card and contactless payment.

Outside of the city services, tickets on the TFI Go app, qr code paper tickets, tickets on physical and virtual leap cards and contactless payment (but have to tell the driver your destination first).

I don’t think they will use the TFI Go app on city services and qr codes printed on paper depend on how fast it is. In the cities you don’t want to slow things down.

And I agree with L1011 above, I don’t think they will follow the OV card way of using tag on and tag off on expensive long distance services. As I said above, more likely to get you to buy the ticket first and then scan it on boarding.

Of course I could be wrong, but if they were following the Dutch model, then they wouldn’t have introduced the 90 minute ticket. Amsterdam has nothing like that, instead it is all tag on and tag off, pay per distance travelled, very different to here or London. I know that the NTA are aligning fares based on distance travelled, but I think that is just the fare and not the way to pay.

Will be fun to watch develop. I still have and use my leap card from the leap card trial!

Pete_Cavan · 01-12-2023 7:50am

Is tere any chance of introducing off-board tag on/off, i.e. at the bus stop? It would speed up boarding which would be a big benefit. It would also allow for the use of 3/4 door buses in the future.

Obviously this would require validators at stops but they could be integrated onto RTPI poles where power and data connections are already available. Stops without RTPI would need another solution, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

stephenjmcd · 01-12-2023 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440377#Comment_121440377

Just on Amsterdam they do have a 1hr travel ticket, QR code purchased through the GVB app and you activate it before your first journey and scan the QR code on tram, metro, bus whatever your mode is. €3.40 if buying the 1hr ticket. Used it once myself when I was there recently, apart from that I only used the tag on and tag off method which made the journey quite easy.

TranslatorPS · 01-12-2023 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440642#Comment_121440642

With the amount of stops in Dublin, plus the consideration needed for temporary stop movements, I think it a far easier solution to have on-board on/off tagging. Much less equipment would be involved.

CatInABox · 01-12-2023 10:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440848#Comment_121440848

Well, the only way that off-board would work would be to introduce some BRT style routes, bringing in not just new equipment at the stops, but new longer stops, articulated 3/4 door buses, etc.

bk · 01-12-2023 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440781#Comment_121440781

Ah, thanks, they didn’t have that the last time I was there, though a good few years ago.

I do worry about how slow scanning QR codes on a phone while boarding city buses might be. I think our 90 minute ticket works well and is good value. Just need faster validator machines.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440976#Comment_121440976

Agreed, I only see off bus tagging happening if it was introduced on some core BRT routes, like was originally planned for Swiftway. I still believe they made a bad mistake scrapping that plan. I don’t think off bus tagging will work for the rest of bus fleet, just too many bus stops.

One thing though, there is the question of if tag off is even needed. The only reason we would currently need it is the short adult fare. If they were to drop the short fare, then you’d only need tag on, no tag off needed.

Just drop the cost of the 90 minute ticket to €1.50 and eliminate the short fare and now you have a flat fare.

I know that means more government subsidy to make up the difference, but could be well worth it, makes public transport more affordable and simpler to use. Also you’d save on the cost of rare door validators and the need for ticket inspectors on the bus.

The child fare is already like this, 65c for 90 minutes of travel. There is no short child fare, totally flat fare.

howiya · 01-12-2023 12:57pm

I know its my own fault but forgot my leap card today. Didn't have sufficient cash to pay for bus so bought another one at shop near bus stop. Put €5 credit on it. Will cover today's journeys. Will register it later and get the deposit and balance of credit refunded. Seems like such a waste of time for all involved. Not to mention more plastic. At least the card is green in colour...

stop · 01-12-2023 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431497#Comment_121431497

The S4 is using the Richview Newstead Gate which is a 24 hour gate, I assume this suits better than the 0700-0000 Clonskeagh gate which gets a lot more traffic. The Richview Entrance is a dead end to the Architecture school.

Noticed the S4 stop at Kylmore McDonalds northbound is not yet fully instated, with the old stop/shelter at Circle K remaining, with RTPI pole with no information, and blank timetable board. Saw an S4 laying over here, presumably ahead of schedule with passengers on board.

Kalimah · 02-12-2023 10:35pm

I’m going to the Gifted Fair in the RDS on Wednesday. Thought I’d get an 18 from work in Rathmines but have only realised that route is gone. Looks like I’ll have to head into town and get a 4 or an 11 out to the RDS. Pain in the neck.

Its taking my daughter 40 minutes to get to work in Dundrum on two buses from Knoclyon instead of the 20 minutes on the old 175. Not impressed.

StreetLight · 02-12-2023 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447092#Comment_121447092

Why don't you just take the S2 from Rathmines to the RDS?

Kalimah · 02-12-2023 10:44pm

Ok didn’t know that went through Rathmines. Perfect- thanks so much!

jd · 03-12-2023 12:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447174#Comment_121447174

And won't the S6 get your daughter to Dundrum?

Qrt · 03-12-2023 3:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447570#Comment_121447570

Probably living in the Orlagh end. Definitely a downgrade if so.

LXFlyer · 03-12-2023 7:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441984#Comment_121441984

Yes sorry, to be clear it's the old Phillips factory entrance (now all part of UCD) that they are using.

dublinman1990 · 03-12-2023 11:06am

I had a look at the TFI journey planner just now.

There is another cancellation for one bus in either direction for the S8 this morning.

The local stop near me near the curtain shop in Newtownpark Avenue has the next S8 arriving there to Dún Laoghaire at 28 minutes. The bus before that one was cancelled.

The stop at Marian Park opposite Dunnes Stores for the S8 to Kingswood Avenue has a 1 hour waiting time applied to it. That one hour gap for the S8 is in place from 10:12am to 11:12am.

I have not seen any other cancellations for that route for the rest of today.

It might be a one off blip in the timetable although it could be a good idea to keep checking it.

There are no currently no cancellations for the S6 or the L25 in place this morning which is good news.

john boye · 03-12-2023 11:15am

Amazing how people just assume routes are removed without replacement.

AngryLips · 03-12-2023 12:01pm

Six months on and the W6 is still split in two. Any progress on when this will be fixed?

LXFlyer · 03-12-2023 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448387#Comment_121448387

Contractor due to be appointed in the New Year and work completed by the summer.

LXFlyer · 03-12-2023 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447570#Comment_121447570

If they’re living along the old 175 route, it is now a longer journey to Dundrum, as people need to change buses to get there (either S8 to 74 or LUAS, or 15 or 15b to S6), especially the Dundrum Town Centre which the S6 leaves people at least a 10 minute walk away from.

As with any network change, there’s winners and losers. It’ll take time to settle down, but the lack of a more frequent direct connection from the S8 to Dundrum along Grange Road pending the introduction of the A2 in 2025 (every 12 mins) is a shame.

It might make more sense in the meantime for people to take the S8 to Brehon Field Road and walk across to Broadford Road to catch a 14.

mikeybhoy · 03-12-2023 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448444#Comment_121448444

Would they not have been better off diverting the S6 via Beaumont Avenue, Barton Road and Dundrum Main Street/Sydenham Road in the opposite direction in order to serve the shopping centre until the A2 is operational. Either that or divert the S8 via Sandyford Road towards Balally to serve the SC.

LXFlyer · 03-12-2023 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448687#Comment_121448687

I suspect that the NTA don’t want to move away from the direct routing that both the S6 & S8 services take. They will assess the feedback I guess, but it doesn’t help when there are cancelled departures on both routes along with the 14 & 74 as there have been over the past week.

If people have to connect, they need to have confidence that the connecting services will all operate.

TheChrisD · 03-12-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448687#Comment_121448687

Sydenham Road would remove the S6/LUAS interchange westbound.

Kalimah · 03-12-2023 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448444#Comment_121448444

The issue today was that the S8 was delayed by 10 minutes. The connection with the 74 wouid have been missed so although my daughter allowed an hour to get to Dundrum from Knocklyon she wouldn’t have got there in an hour. We had to drop her to work. A journey on the old 175 which took 20 minutes (when it turned up) now takes minimum 40 minutes when the connections work. Trying to run a bus service like the London Underground doesn’t work.

mikeybhoy · 03-12-2023 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449377#Comment_121449377

Could she not have gotten the S6?

Podge_irl · 03-12-2023 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449377#Comment_121449377

Trying to run a bus service like the London Underground doesn’t work.

Trying to run a bus service with direct routes for everybody doesn't work, which we have decades of experience showing. Obviously with a switch to a proper network some people will be discommoded, but the majority of people are going to end up with a far better bus service and access to far more areas more quickly.

We just need the Bus Corridors now to limit these delays.

LXFlyer · 03-12-2023 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449377#Comment_121449377

I hear you - I had a fair idea that this would happen, in the absence of the A2 connecting the S8 with Dundrum.

I would suggest in the circumstance where there is no 74 coming that your daughter might be better using the S8 and 14 combination. It does involve a short 5 minute walk, but the fact that the 14 is far more frequent than the 74 means that it is a better option.

If she gets off the S8 at stop 5051 on Brehon Field Road, it's a 5 minute walk along Ballinteer Avenue to stop 2857 at the top of Broadford Road where she catches the 14 there. Using the "Transit" app you can physically see where the buses are.

The 14 is far more frequent than the 74, and while I accept it's not ideal, until the A2 is launched (probably in 2025) it's probably the best option but bear in mind that the 15 or 15b (depending on where she is starting from) and S6 is also an option.

Also, staying on the S8 an extra 7-8 minutes to Sandyford and taking the LUAS to Balally is another option. It would still be less than the 1 hour you quoted.

I think she will have to see on a day-by-day basis and at a particular times which connection is best going forward using the journey planner.

As I said, unfortunately with every network change there are winners and losers.

Kalimah · 03-12-2023 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449537#Comment_121449537

Thanks so much. That’s very helpful.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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