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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭riddles


    They can support the war in their country in many different ways from safe locations within the Ukraine.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Maybe they don't feel safe, and don't want to die there through some random drone attack. Maybe they just don't want to. Is this really such an alien concept to grasp, that individuals or families don't want to stay in an active war zone? Or that people aren't equipped to just put down their lives and "support the war", whatever that means.

    My own (remote) work colleague left Ukraine from the Western half because despite being "relatively" safe, was still subject to occasional air raid warnings and frequent power outages. He lived in Kyiv but his parents luckily hailed from the West side, so had somewhere to go, even if that meant living off a portable generator for 6+ hours a day.

    A desire to want to be safe from harm is not a detestable, objectionable thought - despite what you appear to be implying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,914 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The BBC estimated around 20k fighting age men left Ukraine since the beginning of the conflict to avoid fighting or being drafted. I'd estimate the total would be somewhat higher than that.

    However out of a population of 44 million, it represents a relatively small amount. Keep in mind that Ukrainian expats returned to the country to fight at the outbreak (from Poland alone it was estimated "over 20,000")



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭zv2


    To be exact; there's a difference between escaping war and escaping conscription.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ask yourself this: if a Ukrainian born-journalist who moved to the USA at 5 or 6 wrote an article for Time magazine that gave some stats that looked good for Ukraine, would you dismiss it the same way? Oh he's Ukrainian-born so probably made them up?

    If not, then you're guilty of the very bias you are putting on Shuster.

    How about Ben Wallace, former British Defense minister? "The average age of soliders at the front is over 40"

    Maybe you can dig into his nationality or sexuality or something and tell us why we can dimiss his claims out of hand. He does look a bit like Gorbachev



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Men with 3+ children were allowed to leave.

    And let's be honest, a lot of people who left came from Eastern Ukraine with a large Russian population. Some of them probably lean to the other side. I hear far more Russian spoken here than Ukrainian. I'm no language expert, I've been to Ukraine once but Ukrainian is closer to Polish, and I can pick up a lot of Russian words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio



    I imagine someone from western Ukraine would struggle to prove they're fleeing war, especially in the past 12 months when the front line is moving further eastwards.

    However, someone from western Ukraine who may be immediately drafted and sent to the front line in eastern Ukraine is escaping war.

    I quoted the ECJ ruling on the matter above. 101686



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling






  • The people who left Ukraine were prime aged working people. It was the old people that stayed behind, and just continued their life best as they could. I wonder if they kept those workers in the country (including the women), set up factories to provide weapons and ammunition for the war. The west would of been able to give them the materials and the instructions. It's like that phrase teach a person to fish ...

    I think it would also gave the men at the front more of a reason to fight. When alot of women have left the country, they would be wondering what are they fighting for. Despite on the videos they show family men reuniting with their children etc. The reality is Ukraine is a low fertility country, so alot of them wouldn't have any children.

    On the idea of repatriating the Ukrainians now ..well the cat is already out of the bag on that one.

    The reality is people are a resource to a country, and to give up any resource during war is foolish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    It is not Ireland's responsibility to ensure Ukraine has enough soldiers, and it is not legal to return refugees to Ukraine so they are available for conscription.

    End of story.


    And let's be honest, when Furze suggested this it wasn't some holier-than-thou sentiment for the survival of Ukraine.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭mikefromcork


    "The people who left Ukraine were prime aged working people" What an odd phrase to describe people fleeing a war.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Right up there with the phrase "military-age men".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    The people who left Ukraine were prime aged working people. 

    First of all, feel free to show some facts backing that up. Second: people fleeing a war are not a resource, chattel, cowards or dodgers; they're human beings and shouldn't need reminding of this.

    I wonder if they kept those workers in the country (including the women)

    And how would "they" have done that exactly? Post the army on the borders, arrest those fleeing? Death? Or maybe conscription into the army as "punishment"?

    The whiff of First World pretension of this entire segue is getting more than a little ... well. It's a tad obnoxious.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,914 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    They couldn't "keep" women and children in the country when Russia started it's multi-front invasion. The West and rest of the world struggled to provide them with the arms they really needed at the time (and continue to do so).

    Despite all that, and losing a third of it's already weak (poor and stagnant) economy, and being under long-range missile and infrastructure attack, Ukraine has managed to get domestic arms manufacturing going and attracted foreign arms investment (e.g. German giant Rheinmetall has setup a factory there)

    Also, several million Ukrainians have returned to their country during war-time.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Dohnjoe several million Ukrainians have returned to their country during war-time.

    Returned on a brief visit?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Probably went back for a holiday. I hear Ryanair is doing cheap flights to Donetsk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,914 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Difficult to determine whether it's permanent or shorter term, but the figures (as of early this year) were around 5+ million "returnees"




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Don't think they have returned on anything other than a visit other wise the population would have rapidly increased, instead we are still seeing decreases,many here will likely return to Ukraine for Christmas before returning here in January



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's already been documented that many are planning to leave their emergency accommodation here for up to a month for Christmas,



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Seems to be divisions in the Ukrainian leadership, zelensky has been called out several times lately by others in Ukraine including by commander in chief Zaluzhnyi and the Klitschko brothers , on top of two attempted assinations which I don't think Russia had any hand in ,

    They need to get there house back in order or Risk bigger and damaging splits..




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    I don’t think Ukrainian men of fighting age should be deported to fight, it’s never going to happen. The exception being those who commit violent crimes whilst here as was the case in a hotel here the other week where a Ukrainian man battered a woman in the hotel for refugees they were staying at. Sent to the hotel in Dublin as punishment. If you can batter a woman you can go fight on a real battlefield.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    Saw that on skynews. It's not a great thing at all. Would cause divisions in chain of command. Probably as there hasn't been much Ukranian advances as they hoped. I would say zelensky is just worried that nations might pull back on the support they are been given now as nations were probably expecting Ukraine to have taken back a massive chunk back from Russia. That's not how wars work in the time frame I say some countries and leaders were expecting but I suppose it's hard to tell countries that if it's not their country under attack.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    You are delving into the philosophical argument of the social construct and the obligations of the State to the Citizen... and the return obligations of the Citizen to the State. An example from the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776, Art 8 is a fair case in point.


    This is no recent argument. From an issue of Ethics and International Affairs in 2004.

    Or from an 2010 issue of "Armed Forces and Society"

    The latter seems to be the dominant line of thinking. Basically, it may be moral to refuse to serve in some circumstances, but if the fight is 'just' (and I would argue that your example of a peaceful Ireland being invaded by tanks coming South from Newry is about as 'just' as it gets), there is such a moral obligation.

    Go to a 1936 issue (July) of International Journal of Ethics and you will find the following.

    However, it also points out:

    The question of the return duty of the citizen to the state has even made it to courts. In 1918, the draft law was challenged in the US Supreme Court.

    The form of conscription which has proven a bit more troublesome on ethical grounds (but makes sense on practical) is peacetime conscription: If there is no active threat to the State, what right does the State have to compel service? The opinions seem a little more split on the matter. That is not, however, the current situation in Ukraine, and Putin may well be categorised as one of the "homicidal lunatics in control of government policy" referenced above.

    With the acceptance that personal ethics are, of course, entirely personal, society inherently places limits on those individual foibles. (Ethical to kill certain people? To steal things? Whatever. They are our laws). To that extent, in modern society it seems likely that your position is an outlier and society may well demand your service regardless of your lack of feeling of personal obligation back to the State. Consider yourself fortunate that as an Irish resident, such a requirement is highly unlikely.

    This is, of course, all a separate question of whether a country has the duty to return wayward citizens to the country of origin, which itself is rather untested in Europe. There was no extradition clause for draft dodging between the US and Canada in Vietnam. I am a little surprised that it has not yet been suggested by Ukraine, but it seems that the default position right now is "If you try to leave and we catch you, we'll punish you. If you make it out, we'll leave it be and consider things when we have less pressing matters to attend to".



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Economics101


    That is nonsense. It took me about 3 seconds on the Ryanair website to confirm this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    With the acceptance that personal ethics are, of course, entirely personal, society inherently places limits on those individual foibles. (Ethical to kill certain people? To steal things? Whatever. They are our laws). To that extent, in modern society it seems likely that your position is an outlier and society may well demand your service regardless of your lack of feeling of personal obligation back to the State. Consider yourself fortunate that as an Irish resident, such a requirement is highly unlikely.

    "Society" as defined by who exactly? Are you suggesting that in the event of an invasion, there wouldn't be a mass race for Rosslare et al? Which, to be honest, doesn't seem likely at all and you could guarantee every point of entry would quickly become blocked with people attempting to leave. I don't think there's a philosophical quandary here because ultimately I don't care about some "contractual" obligation of the state demanding my participation in conflict.

    And TBH you're comparing a country whose foundation was built upon the notion of State Militias - to the extent that the question of a certain amendment in the constitution remains an active, nay outright contentious, one - with a peacetime constitutional republic such as Ireland; one whose response to invasion probably would be the 3 Day War suggested by Putin. People should have the right to refuse to take up arms, and any argument to the contrary washes thin when asked to fight for something I find nothing more than an artificial construct in the first place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭josip


    So what happens if everyone in every country thinks and acts the same as you pixelburp? You'll run out of safe countries to flee to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    If everyone in every country was a pacifist you'd only have safe countries. An evolved species my hoop.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I didn't only bring up US sources. To my knowledge, Hegel and Herzog were very much not American. The 1936 article was written by an Englishman named C. Delisle Burns, a Professor of Citizenship. (No idea if that's still a thing). The point is that it is a widely discussed concept, including in the US.

    Well, Oxford defines society as "the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community." The artificial construct in question has governed your activities for much of your life in the furtherance of that more or less ordered community, but you have a fair point: Let's assume there's a mass race for Rosslare. Unlike Ukraine where it's pretty easy to cross a border on foot, good luck swimming to Holyhead or Brest. You may well find yourself and your family stuck on the shore, awaiting a boat from... someone. I can't imagine Stena will be in a hurry to sail its ships to a war zone. What happens when, due to lack of resistance, the invading forces get to Rosslare, and you? Trust on the good offices of the invading force? That hasn't worked well for Ukrainian citizens who didn't get out from the areas Russia seized. Of course, this is all wildly hypothetical for the Irish situation.

    As you do point out, Ireland is not the US. Neither is it Ukraine. Whatever the limited chances are of an invasion of Ireland, such was not the case for Ukraine, and the question is not in any way abstract. Ukraine was in the happy position that it did not need to take a defensive posture similar to, say, Norway, whose official stated goal for defense is not to defend the country per se as it would be an impossible task but simply to slow down the opposition long enough for help to arrive (Which is, in practice, pretty much the Irish position, although unstated). Ukraine, as a society, had the capability to defend itself, but only if that society also provided the mechanism to do it. Much as any society can compel certain actions of its citizens (you do pay tax and generally obey the laws, right?) on the grounds that the citizenry as a general whole believe that it is communally beneficial to do that, it seems logical that those actions can compel military service as well. By inherent definition, 'compel' means forcing a course of action no matter the personal opinions of the person in question.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    That's not a realistic scenario or question to ask: come on (though presumably if Ireland were invaded France, UK, Germany et hvae already fallen so we probably couldn't flee). This is all a bit too Big Talk and keyboard warrior stuff that Ukrainian men should be back in Ukraine manning trenches or "helping the war effort" - and a slightly tedious dismissal of both war and how we react to it as individuals or small groups. Oh we like to think we'd grab our pitchforks and march boldly out to face the enemy. No. At least I'm being honest in admitting that my first instinct would be to get myself and my family the F Outta Dodge. While my own 1st degree experience - albeit a sample size of precisely one man from Ukraine lol - was of a fellow who wanted to do same. Easy to condemn when not faced with the realities of war; I hate to speak of a person's private situation, but all I'll say is that he's not doing OK. We're trying to give him emotional support but that's hard remotely, and he's not doing well. War is héll on everyone, and breaks us down in its own ways.

    Trotting out some kind of social contract like there's an imperative to take up arms is, well, a little bit American and melodramatically fanciful. I have no interest in fighting, have no desire to kill or hurt others and maybe - maybe - if there really was some dreadful existential threat such that it threatened by family's future? Yeah! Who knows how my brain chemistry would react then - but my own hypothetical response is more honest than some of this chest puffing reductiveness of How Dare These Men leave their country; a reduction that does smell a bit like "get the migrants out of Ireland", which is very on brand ATM unfortunately.

    I think that's all I'll say on that subject cos I'm not gonna speak for Ukrainian refugees like I'm close to them, or defend my own perfectly valid position like it's abhorant or shameful. Maybe the problem in the world is an over-eagerness from some to fight when fighting wasn't necessary.



This discussion has been closed.
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