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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    They aren't going to bring in a LHP. The succession plan there is Milne / Boyle / P McCarthy.

    All have looked promising-ish at the level they're at so far. Milne's injury this season has been very unfortunate, but Jack Boyle has gotten a huge amount of gametime, which is invaluable for a prop his age.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭jonok28


    I would tend to agree regarding the LHP succession plan. There is a relatively clear plan but is Milne a strong enough scrummager? Is Boyle ready for European nights in the next 12 months? will McCarthy switch to TH if there is a clear future potential depth chart of Porter,Milne and Boyle? It is essential that Leinster invest in a highly experienced TH with is a technican in the scrum and who will solidify it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,535 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    One point for optimism, is that issues with set pieces and accuracy are correctable. We have a very talented team, and I'm confident we'll be much sharper come the business end of the season. Nienbar is no MOC, I don't forsee him allowing such poor play to continue.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    No, Milne hasn't looked a good enough scrummager yet.

    With Boyle, it's very hard to know. He's already ahead of where I thought he'd be for a 21-year old prop, and he is probably the most highly touted prop prospect we've had since Andrew Porter. He just needs to keep getting gametime, and to get as much AIL game time as he can. He's going to have some tough days but looks to be getting better all the time, and didn't look at all out of place when he came on against Munster in the Aviva.

    I dunno on Paddy McCarthy switching back. To me, he doesn't have the frame for it. He's listed at 113kg now (per the Leinster season ticket holder's info booklet, for some inexplicable reason they haven't updated his profile on the awful website), but they've used him exclusively as a LHP this season despite the relatively poor pipeline on the other side.

    McGuire and Clarkson are the guys who need to get gametime too. Temi Lasisi switched to THP, and plays virtually every week for Lansdowne there in 1A, so hopefully he's developing too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Jesus, I absolutely wouldn't say that our defence is showing up very well. At all. We conceded three tries through poor defensive decisions both individually and collectively. They're clearly trying to implement a more aggressive system and, at times, it's working as we knock teams back and swarm them. But we're extremely vulnerable if we get it wrong or don't commit to it fully.

    First try, we lose our line out. Hawkshaw beats Ngatai and Byrne by stepping inside and offloads to Heffernan. Byrne recovers to take him down and Henshaw does an ok job of slowing their ball down. But we've numbered up wrong and it's a 5 on 3 (or 4 if Jenkins is able to make it out from the pillar position). Connacht just need to have accurate hands to expose us. Osborne has an opportunity to shut it down and obliterate Hansen. He hesitates and that gives Hansen plenty of time to get his pass away. Ngatai is too slow to get to Ralston and he's away. Slick hands and Hawkshaw is over in the corner. I think we could have worked across better too. We had a great scramble defence in previous seasons.

    Second try comes after an up and under from Foley. Should have 100% been a Connacht scrum as the referee clearly gets in between the carrier and Kelleher who can't make a tackle. On the recycle, Furlong shoots up but gets away with it. In fairness, it's a great move by Connacht. They've 9 players bunched in a about a 20 yard alignment with a forward pod taking the ball which is played out the back to Hanrahan. All eyes are on Hansen but the ball is flashed across to Boyle, taking it at pace. Harry Byrne makes a good tackle but Boyle offloads to Ford on the run. Ngatai is arguably a bit disconnected as HB had moved infield to make the tackle. Ngatai's slow off the mark though and can't get to Ford who puts Blade away. I can put this one down to genuinely excellent attacking play. It's the try of the game.

    The final one though was on us again. We show good linespeed and catch them way behind the gainline which is great but we relax then. We don't work across the pitch at all. Connacht have four men off their feet in the ruck and we have one. We have the numerical advantage in terms of people on their feet. It's purely bad work rate. Ngatai is pillar but Byrne is outside of him with nobody in front of him. He should be screaming to push out to those outside him. As it stands, we've Furlong, Deegan and Russell (injured by then) across from Hanrahan, Hansen and Kilgallon. Deegan doesn't trust Furlong and shoots up and in. A simple pass and Hansen has a free run. Russell can't make that tackle and it's a 2 on 1 against Frawley. Poor decisions and workrate. Ngatai is literally walking from the pillar position instead of trying to get back into a position where he can impact the game.

    I think our attacking issues are probably more easily resolved. Our patterns and lines are still not too shabby but the execution looks really sloppy. I cannot recall 80 minutes of rugby where we've dropped as many balls as we did in the opening 40 against Munster and the opening 40 against Connacht. If we hold onto those, I think we're securing the BP much earlier.

    I can only hope that this mirrors the start of the Schmidt reign where we were very patchy for the opening couple of months, won a scrappy interpro in Dublin before looking a completely different team against Racing in the RDS and tearing them apart.



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  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Good analysis - Ngatai comes across poorly in your reads. He seems to be either lacking the pace, making bad reads or just being a bit lazy effectively in all three scenarios.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    He does which is disappointing because I think he is a really talented player with a lot to offer. He's a wrecking ball in his carrying but has a subtle touch to his game that not many have. The guided grubber for Kelleher's try was a thing of beauty. He also can definitely put in that work rate too; I'm sure we all recall the try line tackle away to Ulster last season which was potentially the winning of the game.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭jonok28


    Even just for next season, would it be beneficial if they were to lose Healy and Ed Byrne to bring in a veteran LH who doesn't need to be international quality but offers some ability to be a scrum technician and capable of offering experience while also not impeding the younger players.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3


    they are more likely to keep one of Healy or Byrne than sign a veteran for a season. No problem keeping Healy but Byrne should be moved on.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Would it help Leinster? Yeah, absolutely.

    But it's another one of those scenarios where the IRFU won't sign off on it.

    The depth chart for LHP for Ireland is absolutely dire at the moment. Ulster have no one coming through (Jacob Boyd is a few years away, Callum Reid isn't good enough). At Munster, Loughman doesn't look elite and Josh Wycherley can't get past Kilcoyne. He's also never looked good enough. At Connacht it's really only Dooley, who's had a mediocre career after some early promise and the fairly ineffective Jordan Duggan.

    Ireland need guys like Milne, Boyle & McCarthy to come through, so I can't see a scenario where they block their development minutes, even if it means Leinster suffer in the interim.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭jonok28


    I see your point about making sure to not impede the youth movement. It might be a bit of a teething process but in the end, the extra game time will help develop the youth even further.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭conquestscarer


    If Paddy McCarthy is as skinny as he is now and 113kg he should have the frame for tighthead prop. Seeing him in person I'm amazed that he doesn't get torn a new one every scrum he is in considering he looks very very skinny for a professional prop, his upper half doesn't look as filled out as most backrowers at the moment. We should have a tighthead or two coming into the academy this year so who knows if we keep him at Loosehead or move him to tighthead. Find the narrative of him doing more around the pitch as a loosehead a bit silly though as I've played both and not exactly like you're relaxing in the scrum when you're a loosehead and also not like he massively changed his bodyweight over 2 weeks so that he was quicker and leaner. Patterns of play can be altered if you've got a great carrying tighthead as well, coaches obviously have a decision to make but either way he needs to put on 5/10kg over the next year like Boyle has.

    From what I've seen of Boyle, he's been very good at scrum time, not winning penalties but holding his own and getting the shove on a few times this year. I don't think he conceded a penalty in the Glasgow game against Fagerson, was all coming down Clarksons side who had an atrocious game that day. I think he's already shown a bit more at scrum time than Milne has IMO and I would trust him against most tighthead props. Think he should be on the bench against La Rochelle this week. That said I wouldn't like to see him come on after 10 minutes and scrummage against Antonio.

    If referees have decided that Porter can't win scrum penalties before matches(Seemed that way to me against Munster and the week before), you'd have to think that a Porter would have to switch back to TH and let Boyle take over the in the next year or two. I think we will probably be in a Porter/Furlong situation anyway in the next year or two with Boyle.

    I also have to note that Molony and Baird to me look like terrible scrummagers at second row. Whenever either of them are in the scrum it just isn't solid, Joe McCarthy looks like a machine in that regard which is one of the reasons he's a must start for me this year.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Losing Ala'alatoa is not a big loss, imo. He's not a top level player and for a man with his experience he's come up short. I would say that Marty Moore is a big improvement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I hope so! The scrum has been so poor. You'd think that it would have been a priority to fix. I can't understand why Porter continues to scrum like he does. He's always turned in with a poor bind.

    Scrummaging in Leinster seems to be an afterthought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    At this stage, what has Healy got left? To me, he's a 15 minute player at best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Disagree re:Loughman, a late bloomer whi is playing well. He really is putting his hand up.

    As for Milne, he seems to be cursed with injury. I'm hoping he gets back soon and gets a run. His scrummaging is suspect though but I think it will improve.

    It does say a lot about Ireland that Ed Byrne has international caps and is only a URC level player.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    What has he left? He was going to be the replacement LH prop at the most recent RWC only for injury.

    You have consistently shat on Healy for over a year and he consistently shows he's the second best LH in Ireland.

    The issue is the obvious gulf between him and Porter and Porters ability to play an insanely high amount of minutes at an insanely high standard



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    Yeah - it's very hard to know how seriously you can take listed heights and weights from Leinster Rugby tbh.

    I think there will be at least one THP coming into the academy - most likely Andrew Sparrow but potentially Adam Deay. There is a less obvious prospect at LHP, maybe Alex Usanov, but hard to know. So I'd be surprised to see McCarthy shifted back to THP.

    I'd agree on being very high on Boyle, and think he's looked good and comfortable so far, while also chipping in well in general play. Dunno about having him on the bench this weekend though, I imagine that'll be Cian Healy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    What has Marty Moore got to do with Ala'alatoa though?

    Marty Moore could conceivably start a game for Ulster and can scrummage to a European standard. I know Ulster are high on Scott Wilson but he's still got a long way to go. He's got 2 senior appearances to his name.

    Leinster can't outbid Ulster for Moore and Ulster are obviously going to re-sign him. The only way he goes to Leinster would be with some IRFU meddling which there is no circumstance the IRFU are going to sanction a move for a Tighthead who could conceivably start for a province to go and be a guaranteed second choice at another one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    He's consistently shown he's a sub. He's not a starter! Anyone can see his play in the loose is not a high standard. I'm not dumping on him, I just think he's past it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I know we can't outbid Ulster. It would obviously be up yo Moore.



  • Posts: 0 Lia Sweet Racist


    The IRFU would also need to sign off on it - so even if he wanted to move (and I can't see an obviously logical reason for him to want to move) there is a very strong chance the IRFU would still not sanction it.

    It does absolutely nothing to help Ireland. Ulster's THP stocks are so desperate they were playing AIL level players like Ben Griffin, Greg McGrath and James French at THP at the beginning of the season, so they'll presumably absolutely want to retain Marty Moore for another contract while Wilson keeps developing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Moore moving would mean O'Toole was first choice for Ulster. How can that not be a positive for Ireland if Farrell prefers O'Toole to Moore? Moore might as well be NIQ as regards Ireland selection. He's hardly featured at all. Is that appearance off the bench for Ireland 'A' against the NZ XV his only involvement under Farrell?

    Does Moore still have international ambitions? His current situation doesn't seem to be doing anything to convince Farrell. Leinster are likely to play more knockout games than Ulster next season and the one after. If he impressed in those could he change Farrell's mind and become an extra tighthead option for Ireland that currently isn't there?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I really don't understand how you can be critical of Healy whilst pushing Marty Moore as an option for Leinster. Healy might be a few years older but which one looks like they could actually last more than 15 minutes of a high end match? Both images from last couple of weeks.


    I honestly wouldn't touch Moore at this point and I doubt Leinster would either. He's potentially 3rd choice in Ulster before the end of the season.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    He's a tighthead. Being conditioned more for the scrum is more important than at loosehead.

    He's not who you'd want in a very fast game with potentially lots of mismatches. But in a tight, arm-wrestle type knockout game he could be very influential.

    It could also be useful for Milne, Boyle and McCarthy's development to have possibly the strongest scrummaging tighthead in Ireland opposing them in training.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Moore has a body Malherbe would die for



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Moore would be an upgrade on Big Mike. An alternative is to switch Porter over, this would probably relegate Furlong to the bench, based on Furlong's form.

    Healy looks in shape, good. He's still not starting at this stage. He's fine as a closet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,605 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Wouldn't mind Malherbe!!!



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Moore would be an upgrade on Big Mike.

    Have you actually watched Moore play?

    He absolutely would not be an upgrade and he would be completely at sea in the Leinster setup. I don't understand why you are so critical of Healy not being able to start when it's clear Moore is not capable of playing any significant minutes either.



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