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Supporting craft breweries

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,989 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    Ah 🫢



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,050 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    How does 9% qualify as a "Quadruple"?! Or am I about to learn that double- triple- and quad have nothing to do with strength and it's to do with how it's brewed?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    The terms have nothing to do with anything much. It's the Spinal Tap volume knob of beer nomenclature: three is a bigger number than two, and four is bigger than three. That's all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,761 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Time to trademark EIPA for when it gets to 11 then.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,989 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    Remember when we just had IPA? (and a reasonable idea what that meant)

    Good times 😊

    Although I do enjoy the confusion that a double IPA could be IIPA or DIPA!



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    With craft beer it's amount of hops. With the Belgians it does mean more alcohol but a few percent and not double or quadruple the amount.

    What is and isn't an IPA, DIPA or IPA² is all over the place. Traditionally IPA should mean more alcohol than a Pale but thats gone well out the window.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    The tradition you're referencing there is American and no older than the 1980s. In 19th and 20th century British brewing, where IPA came from, it was often among the weakest beers in the portfolio. Plenty of breweries didn't make any distinction between what was called a Pale Ale and what was called an IPA: the terms were just as makey-uppy then as they are now. It was only when the Americans arrived in that they decided there ought to be a system, so they invented one. Nothing traditional about it.

    The double, triple, quadruple IPA thing doesn't refer to hop quantities. Brewers aren't working to a manual or rulebook that they can see but we can't. They're just making things up as they go along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It's called IPA because it was export strength to ship to India.

    But there wasn't ever any rules about ABV and the only "rule" was IPA would be hoppier.

    When it became cool a DIPA would be the recipe of the breweries IPA with the hops doubled up but its no guarantee.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    IPA was never shipped to India. When the colonists returned, and wanted to keep drinking the beer they used to get in India, breweries like Bass and Allsopp began making a product called "Pale Ale As Prepared For India" ie a local beer that's like what gets shipped to India. This was then abbreviated to India Pale Ale.

    There's no direct evidence that the pale ale shipped to India was brewed extra strong. Advice for brewers making beer for export by ship were told, most importantly, to attenuate it out completely, so warm weather wouldn't kick off new fermentation and explode the casks in the hold. This unusual dryness is probably what gave the beer its distinctive character and made it popular with the colonists. There is advice for brewers making porter for the Caribbean trade that they should add extra hops, and so it's likely that beer going eastwards got the same treatment, but there's no direct evidence that pale ale being shipped to India got extra hops.

    The story that IPA was an extra strong (and extra hoppy) to survive the journey to India was made up by American homebrewers in the 1970s. Historians like Ron Pattinson and Martyn Cornell have looked at the actual sources and debunked it thoroughly years ago.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,989 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    To my mind, a double IPA should be stronger and have more hops than an IPA, and so on. But, as pointed out, there are no rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Maybe it is urban legend but I can't believe it comes from US home brewers because the story is also very widely accepted with traditional ale drinkers in England including ones who have been drinking ale a lot longer than any story would make its way over and would have no contact with any beer "scene"



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    The myths are even repeated by celebrated and award-winning beer writers. Michael Jackson was an absolute divil for publishing stuff like this, because it's a good story and he didn't care about the historical facts. When he became the guru of the newly-formed American beer scene, the stuff he got wrong was repeated as fact, and still is. You still see myths in the writings of Roger Protz, but he's got more careful now that the Internet tends to call him out on it.

    Drinking ale for a long time doesn't make you knowledgeable about its history, especially when there's such a long pedigree of misinformation out there. The truth is in contemporary accounts and brewing records, and only there. That's the spadework that the likes of Pattinson and Cornell have done.

    Beside, Greene King IPA and Eagle IPA (formerly Wells Eagle) are two of England's longest running IPAs and both are 3.6% ABV. Anyone who thinks they came from beer being brewed extra strong for India has a bit of explaining to do there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    "Drinking ale for a long time doesn't make you knowledgeable about its history" I agree and the people I'm talking about have no contact with beer outside of drinking it which is why I'm surprised they are picking up on a US craft beer scene myth. These people have never read Jackson or any beer blogger.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if the US were only picking up on an urban legend rather than inventing it.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    They can't have no contact with beer outside of drinking it. If they believe something about its history, then that must have come from somewhere, and most likely from the pages of What's Brewing or The Good Beer Guide.

    They have read Jackson because things Jackson wrote, in Britain and the US, got repeated extensively, by other journalists, and in brewery marketing material. He had an immense influence on how beer is talked about. You may never have read a Jackson book or article, but if you regard beer as having groups of styles related to each other and having historical and geographical relationships, then you're quoting Jackson because he invented that. He created the concept of beer existing in "styles", and chose the word style for it because he was a journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Jackson would actually prove my point that the myth doesn't come from the US given that he is British and wrote for British papers. Good chance too that he is repeating not inventing a myth.

    So you're right they probably have read his stuff without knowing it.

    Horsesht he invented the idea of beer existing in styles though unless you just mean he popularised the word "style" in the anglophone beer market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,989 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    It's a brave commenter calls anything BN says about beer, horseshlt!

    This should be interesting 🍿



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Paragraph two of his Wikipedia page, citing his obituary in The New York Times, says "He is credited with helping to start a renaissance of interest in beer and breweries worldwide in the 1970s, particularly in the United States". He was extremely influential on the early American microbrewing scene. Your point remains thoroughly unproven.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Godammit, my whole joie de vivre was based on consuming ales for knowledge and respect. You've roundly punctured that balloon in a hurtful way. 😂

    Drinking ale for a long time doesn't make you knowledgeable about its history, especially when there's such a long pedigree of misinformation out there. The truth is in contemporary accounts and brewing records, and only there. That's the spadework that the likes of Pattinson and Cornell have done.

    Very well put.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    That also does not say "the IPA myth was invented in the US"

    It might say it was oft mentioned by a British guy who was much loved in the US. Prove was obviously the wrong word to use though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭wexdevil


    Actually thats my bad it was 11% 🤦‍♂️



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    I think maybe you have misunderstood what I was trying to say. To recap: IPA as the central feature of "craft beer" (for want of a better term) as we know it today is an American thing. English IPA was all but dead by the end of the 20th century, with just a handful of hangers-on. Then came Sierra Nevada and the other west-coast brewers: looking to English IPA for inspiration but using fresh local hops to make American IPA its own thing. The American microbrewing movement hadn't really had a style of its own -- the Samuel Adams flagship was a Vienna lager; Pete's Wicked was a brown ale -- but when the hop craze properly took off, American IPA was it, thanks to the likes of Stone and Ballast Point going all-in on big hops and big alcohol with a big attitude. By the mid-2000s, the American IPA concept had been exported: Jaipur and its offspring Punk in the UK; Galway Hooker the first baby step here on the route to what would later bring us Flora & Fauna, Of Foam & Fury and all the other big hop-blast American-style IPAs that we now take for granted. Craft-brewed IPA is an American concept, wherever the beer happens to be brewed and consumed.

    With the concept, came the story. American brewers trying to sell the first modern American IPAs needed to tell people what it was. They knew that hops were central to the beer's character; they knew that they were brewing it stronger than English pale ale; and they knew that export to India featured in its history. These three facts were embroidered together into the (not unreasonable) idea that IPA was an extra-strong, extra-hoppy version of pale ale, made for export to India. They invented a sliding scale of strengths with pale ale at the low end and IPA at the high end, because that's the way they ran their breweries' ranges. Nobody at that point knew any better, so that became the "official" origin story. But that doesn't mean it's true. We now know it isn't: for 19th century British breweries, pale ale and IPA were largely synonymous terms, not two different products in a range.

    English breweries didn't do marketing like this. They didn't need to. Customers went to the pub owned by their local brewery and drank what was there. They didn't need a whole origin story. The origin story is a feature of 1980s American marketing, and where it exists on this side of the Atlantic, we got it from there when we adopted their way of doing beer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,050 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    I never would have commented if you'd said 11% in the first place! See what you started! 🤣🤣

    (I've actually learned a lot, so thanks!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭Beanstalk


    I'm just super bummed they didn't ship high strengh ale to India now. But then, its makes sense, its takes months to get to India, just brew it there!



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Thinking about quadruples on a Monday - slippery slope stuff! 😂

    That said, I wouldn't mind a Straffe Hendrik or a La Trappe sometime soon. 🤔



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    In Europe, brewing had to stop for the summer because it was too warm. There was NO chance that a 19th century brewer could make acceptable beer in the Indian climate. It had to be shipped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,989 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    As I understand it, pale ale, probably well hopped, was shipped to India. It just wasn't called IPA and was probably no stronger than other beers of its day.

    That about it, BN?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    So; basically, the nub of what everyone else has said is correct.


    We maybe could have done without the semantics. Some people, it seems, find delight in showing off how much they know about silly details that may, or may not, be accurate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭Pen Rua


    Speaking of styles, categories and origins, what makes a lager "rustic"?

    https://craftcentral.ie/collections/coming-soon/products/clearest-echoes



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