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JFK Assassination Autopsy Details Revealed After 55 Years

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    I assume you accept the 2nd photo in post 1992 is a valid photo and is the same photo that Ford was looking at in 1964.

    Fords version wanted to move the wound up by almost 3 inches (to be the entrance for the bullet they allege exited his throat), and the final version moves the wound up by at least 1.5 inches- to still serve that function.

    The entrance wound is not ‘at the base of the back of his neck’ (such contorted language) –  it is in his shoulder.

    Why would someone look at this photo, change an accurate & precise description by 3 inches and spend time and effort trying persuade 6 others to describe it that way only to reach a compromise which is still a false description.

    Here we have the attempted falsification of an entrance wound by 3” that just happens to assist a lone gunman theory (at the time) with all these officials not expecting their deliberations or the photo ever being seen by the public. The bullet was on a sharp downward angle and Kennedy was sitting upright - do you think the bullet that entered his shoulder exited his throat around the adams apple?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You claim that 9 shooters (3 teams of 3) were involved in assassinating JFK. I have some questions about this:

    (Let's start with basics)

    How do you know it was 9 and not 8 or 10 for example?

    What weapons did they use and what ammo?

    Who shot when and how often?



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    3 teams in Tampa, 3 in Chicago and 3 in Dallas. Some of the teams could of course be moved forward when previous assassination attempts failed, meaning a lot less than 9 teams may have been used.

    This is guess work of course, based on how assassination squads are set up in the military & intelligence agencies of countries like the US, UK etc. Their vets do like bragging about this in books. Reliable rifles & expert marksmen are required. It’s possible the 3rd team wasn’t used if they couldn’t get a clear shot. . Most or possibly all shots came from the TBD & knoll. I think Jackie & others were lucky not to also be hit.

    Take the team on the knoll: with honed practice, after finishing shooting the gunman drops the rifle into a long duffel bag being held by man 2, man 1&2 are jogging off a second later, man 3’s job is to pick up the casings & flash a (fake?) official badge to any cop who arrived (man 1&2 would not be seen by arrivees having sat into a nearby car by then). Man 3 could be in the the same or a different car in 40-60 seconds.

    It was bad luck that the car was immediately & zealously stripped & refurbished.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    There was no one on the knoll. As per the pictures and videos from the day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    This is guess work of course

    That's exactly what is is.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Their vets do like bragging about this in books.


    Yet somehow there isn't any books written by any of these assassin squads, or the ones which assassinated the assassin squads, or the ones who... Etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    In a previous post, I mentioned how the HSCA investigation turned out to be a bit of a farce and a big cover-up by the CIA. One of the key figures in this farce was George Joannides, the CIA liaison to the HSCA. The CIA was initially helpful with HSCA by allowing them the opportunity to set up an office in Langley, Virginia, where they could review and access documents. There was an agreement between the HSCA and the CIA regarding non-disclosure, ensuring that sensitive information would not be disclosed to the public.

    HSCA's collaboration with the CIA involved two clerks from the CIA who would provide them with documents for review and authorization. The documents were mainly reviewed and sanctioned by the CIA first before being handed over to the HSCA.

    HSCA's investigation focused on given leads that implicated Bill Harvey and David Atlee Phillips, both CIA, who were alleged to be involved in the Kennedy conspiracy. In 1977, their efforts yielded promising results, indicating that the investigation was on track. However, things took a sinister turn in 1978. Scott Breckenridge, an attorney from the CIA's legal department, approached HSCA and informed them there would be a new point of contact within their organization. Breckenridge stated that his aim was to provide further assistance. It turned out to be a lie

    The HSCA began encountering difficulties in obtaining documents when George took over. The documents were often redacted, leaving out crucial information. The request for different documents was denied. With the sudden obstructions and redactions, the cooperation between the HSCA and the CIA had deteriorated.

    HSCA investigators, including Blakey as the chief counsel, have gone on record since the investigation ended to claim that the CIA terminated its cooperation because they could have found potentially damaging information. They contend that the CIA feared the revelation of sensitive information that could be explosive.

    It is worth noting that the HSCA team was not aware of the CIA's operations in Miami until 2001. It was discovered that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was running an operation there that involved collaboration between the agency and anti-Cuban exiles. It was also revealed that this group, known as Directorio Revolucionario Estudiantil (DRE), was the same group that had a confrontation with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans.

    Carlos Bringuier, who was involved in the New Orleans incident, was a member of DRE. The HSCA investigators requested information regarding the identity of the CIA handler assigned to DRE, but they were not aware of the handler's presence throughout the duration of the investigation. The handler, however, was posing as a fellow investigator (our George) and observing the HSCA's activities.

    Furthermore, leaked files have revealed that Joannides met Lee Harvey Oswald three weeks before the assassination. This raises serious questions about the CIA's actions and their deliberate obstruction of the investigations. More to this story, I leave here for now.

    People on the side who believe Oswald acted alone often ignore information that does not fit with their narrative. The magic bullet theory, while seemingly promising when it was first suggested as the cause, is a clear hoax. What these magic bullet theorists have been claiming for years on YouTube and in books, and elsewhere is a lie.

    They have been claiming for decades that the Carcano bullet that hit Connally on the right shoulder opened a 3cm wound. The image attached contains this false claim (entry wound)

    The statement, "All based on a lie and fact, it still held up as evidence", is amazing to me. Dr Shaw, the surgeon who performed the operation on Governor Connally, stated to the Warren Commission and the HSCA that the bullet that hit Connally caused a 1.5-cm wound. He also added that the 3-cm wound was an enlargement procedure that he had made on the operating table.

    The significance of this discrepancy lies in its impact on the lone gunman theory, which posits that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating President John F. Kennedy. If the bullet that hit Connally was indeed 1.5 cm long, it would indicate a second shot from Oswald that hit Connally, with the tip of the bullet penetrating his skin. The medical evidence that Dr. Shaw provided debunked the lone gunman theory and exposed a list of lone gunman supporters who concealed that information.

    This is a long post already, so I'm sorry I couldn't discuss more.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    I have explained to you twice how the bullet could have made a 1.5cm entry wound. But, as usual, you ignore anything that calls into question your "gotcha" re: the bullet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    Refusal to engage. Text dumps c&ped from Wikipedia.


    Give me one good reason why anyone would take this poster seriously?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    They are the single strongest argument against the latest conspiracy they are promoting



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    Excellent post, The CIA dealings with the HSCA- what a sham from beginning to end.

    I just did a search on this forum to try to construct a strong steel-man justification of the magic bullet that has been posted here over the years. I couldn’t find one post that passes a solid threshold yet. Many promise to… but are answered & undermined in subsequent posts. Will search a bit more and post any I find.

    You’re probably right that there isn’t many/any books written by CIA assassins, I haven’t checked. But things have changed in this business as everyone knows.

    “Drones are a tool, not a policy. The policy is assassination. While every president since Gerald Ford has upheld an executive order banning assassinations by U.S. personnel, Congress has avoided legislating the issue or even defining the word “assassination.” This has allowed proponents of the drone wars to rebrand assassinations with more palatable characterizations, such as the term du jour, “targeted killings.”

    I’m sure you’ve read media articles of the banality of evil of the drone operators in Nevada who assassinate people on recklessly flawed information (they don’t care, they’re just following orders) which also kills 10 more civilians then they go home nearby and watch ‘America’s got talent’, feed the cat, then go back and do it the next day and the next. Assassination is fairly boring & routine nowadays.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    There’s no doubt a rifle bullet can go thru the two bodies- that is not the issue. The issue is the zig zag path thru Kennedy & the lack of damage to the bullet. For that bullet into his back to come out his throat, Kennedy would have to be lying flat face down, or a greater angle than that.

    Look how fast each animation went showing the entry & alleged exit wound - speeding past this key detail in a split second, too fast to show any clarity, a common media obfuscation technique. They spend no time or effort matching up the photo upthread with this animation.

    So again, this bullet did not enter any part of his neck -at all, see medical definition below- it entered his torso / back / shoulder. The Zig zag has nothing to do with Connolly. When Kennedy puts his hands up to his neck in Zaptruder he is sitting upright, not leaning forward like this drawing. The drawing is also  anatomically false, deliberately merging the neck & shoulder into one.

    Here is where the entrance wound on the neck would have to be to exit his adams apple, in my opinion – the upper X. The lower X is Kennedys wound.

    ------------

    (1) The neck is the part of the body that separates the head from the torso. The neck supports the weight of the head and is highly flexible, allowing the head to turn and flex in different directions. (2) The torso or trunk is an anatomical term for the central part, or the core, of the body of many animals (including humans), from which the head, neck, limbs, tail and other appendages extend.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Clearly, the debunkers do not understand much because they think it's copying and pasting now if you provide real information, as said by the HSCA. I am drawing from the HSCA timeline of events. He lied, stating that I copied and pasted from Wikipedia. However, I choose not to comment on this post any further, which is a waste of time.

    The poster named Nal uploaded this image last year or at the start of this year when making an argument. The image depicted a sequence of events related to the infamous "magic bullet" When I confronted him about the discrepancy in the reported size of the wound, he became indignant.

    The well-known debunker's strategy of misdirection won't work on me.

    The bullet is tumbling end over end, resulting in a 3 cm shoulder wound they claim. To further reinforce this, the image even mentions that the length of the Carcano bullet precisely matched the wound. 



    A bullet entering a person is more likely to be tumbling or wobbling when it exits the body rather than yawing. This is the result of the bullet's interaction with the soft tissues of the target. A bullet that yaws, typically only happens when the bullet leaves the barrel of the rifle and is on its way to the target.

    The argument that a bullet with a 3-centimeter sideway motion can be fitted into a 1.5-centimeter hole without widening it is not supported by the evidence. Medical findings confirm that the rear bullet had a clear path and hit Connally's shoulder, resulting in a 1.5 cm wound.

    The wound was caused by the bullet's nose part striking Connally's skin.

    Nal has consistently challenged his own theory by uploading more videos that clearly demonstrate a tumbling bullet leaving a jelly-like substance and hitting the wall sideways.


    The man on the video produces an unfired Carcano bullet and measures it against the hole made in the wall.

    In summary, the bullet exits and tumbles, causing it to travel in a sideways direction. This leads to the likelihood of creating a hole that is 3cm in length. It is important to highlight that none of these lone gunman theorists have reviewed the Connally medical evidence. This oversight is glaring, as none of them seem to have noticed that Governor Connally's wound was too small for a sideways hit.

    Post edited by Cheerful S on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Dr. Shaw's analysis and evidence clearly demonstrate the failure of the magic bullet theory. The wounds sustained by President Kennedy were caused by other bullets, and the exact trajectory of those bullets remains a subject of debate. Additionally, evidence shows that Governor Connally was hit by a bullet that did not even touch President Kennedy. 

    If Oswald was indeed the shooter, it is highly likely that he fired a bullet that hit Connally in the right shoulder. Additionally, another bullet from Oswald's gun struck Kennedy in the back. Another bullet, possibly from the front, hit the throat area. Lastly, another bullet, either from the grassy knoll or the underpass, struck Kennedy in the head. 

    I fully agree with you that there may have been multiple teams of shooters involved in the Dallas shooting. I cannot rule out the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was a member of one of these teams, in the rear.. Somebody was shooting from there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 546 ✭✭✭yew_tree


    All the doctors at Parkland were wrong…yeah right. I don’t understand how the American mainstream media seem to tow the Warren Commission line. The term “Conspiracy Nut” was coined to discredit anyone who questioned it. I believe Kennedy was take out but the real question should not be who but why…?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    There are any number of reasons why any number of people/organisations may want a US president out of the picture. Appeals to motive are simple to create.

    The real question is - if something else occurred, what was it? What happened? As of yet, no one has found anything credible, and as far as I can tell they have no interest whatsoever in determining that.

    Which in itself is a big tell, especially after 60 years.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    The Parkland doctors thought the throat wound was an entry wound. They didn't know about the back wound because they never turned JFK over. So yeah, they were all wrong.

    Did you watch the new documentary? Really makes it clear how little time they were in the room.



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    In my view, this video is an incorrect depiction for the same reason as the previous two.

    Here is partial chronology of initial medical thoughts relevant to the shoulder wound, of course familiar to all on here:-

    [X-rays] In as much as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X-Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets.

    During the latter stages of this autopy, Dr. Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.

    This opening was probed by Dr. Humes with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance in as much as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger.

    Immediately following receipt of this information [bullet found on stretcher], this was made available to Dr. Humes who advised that in his opinion this accounted for no bullet being located which had entered the back region and that since external cardiac massage had been performed at Parkland Hospital, it was entirely possible that through such movement the bullet had worked its way back out of the point of entry and had fallen on the stretcher. On the basis of the latter two developments, Dr. Humes stated that the pattern was clear that the one bullet had entered the President’s back and had worked its way out of the body during external cardiac massage and that a second high velocity bullet had entered the rear of the skull and had fragmentized prior to exit through the top of the skull.

    [Later, throat wound] But now, James Humes faced a serious dilemma. He and his colleagues had failed to include one of Kennedy's wounds in their autopsy findings. Dr. Perry's description of the wound as very small and round sounded like the description of an entrance wound. But with no exit wounds anywhere in the body and no bullets found still in the body, Humes was puzzled. It appeared that both the ullets that entered the president's back and the one that entered his throat had not exited, yet had somehow disappeared.

    After thinking about this, Dr. Humes telephoned Dr. Perry again to obtain a more precise description of the throat wound. During their conversation, Humes had a sudden inspiration and shouted, "so that's it!" He went home, attended a school function with his son, and slept for several hours. Then he took his original autopsy notes, stained with John Kennedy's blood, and burned them in his fireplace 😱

    Then he drew up a new autopsy protocol based on the new information he had gleaned from Dr. Perry. The new report stated that a bullet had entered Kennedy's neck and exited from his throat. Even though there was only slight medical evidence to confirm this, Dr. Humes concluded that it provided the only reasonable explanation for the wounds in Kennedy's body.

    -----------------

    To summarise, Humes initially thought the shoulder bullet fell back out of its entrance wound, but later went along with repurposing the shoulder bullet by referring to it as ‘the (back of) neck bullet’.

    Contrary to the obfuscation from Humes, WC, HSCA & media depictions, this is what joining the two wounds implies for approximate trajectory and angle required (for someone sitting upright ).


    Since the entrance angle was downward (45-60 degrees), even granting a significant ricochet off a bone (maybe not impossible) the exit trajectory would then have to be approximately the upward angle as in the diagram, meaning it is impossible for this repurposed shoulder bullet to be the one that continued on to hit Connolly (the MB).

    This is one of the reasons why regardless of any other aspect of the assassination people are expected to look at the Naval hospital autopsy shoulder wound and despite the evidence of their eyes accept that ‘yes that wound is in his neck’. This entire framing is not reality based.

    Post edited by Lucien_Sarti on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    That diagram doesnt account for the step hill on Elm Street. Its highly unlikely (pretty much impossible) that a bullet from a high powered rifle would only lodge shallow enough for it to fall out with a a bit of massaging.


    This is the only trajectory that makes sense, for both shots.


    Physically impossible the head shot came from the front. Aside from the fact theres clearly no one behind the fence.

    If you want to do a real deep dive have a read of this

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    I’d agree with this alleged angle & trajectory. This drawing is more or less anatomically correct in that it shows that, for a bullet to exit the throat below the AA it has to enter the back of the neck at a point above this alleged exit. As is known there is no wound at the back of Kennedys neck at this point or any part of his neck. 

    The lone gunman story is what is strait-jacketed & contorted beyond belief. When that is dropped, everything gets very straightforward.

    The shoulder wound could be a splinter from other bullets (that hit other objects or the car). There could have been two shooter teams on two different floors of the TSBD & one in the Knoll. All the bullets in the car & Dealey Plaza were picked up; some were recorded in evidence, some were not because they show multiple marksmen. At least one not found bullet was later ‘found’ to fit in with the evolving cover storey (i.e. the scene had been cleaned too much). The front windscreen was taken out & replaced at Parklands & the whole car was stripped of all evidence & a new interior put in straight after this etc.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    There could have been two shooter teams on two different floors of the TSBD


    What is the reason for having two shooters positioned in the book depository? Is this just so that they can create some angles of fire which will rouse the curiosity of people on the Internet decades later? Why did they pin it on Oswald and not this other shooter on another floor? Or why not on both shooters? How did they manage to make sure all the bullets found matched the one from Oswalds gun and not from this other shooter?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Alright, but you don't have any credible evidence for your theory he was killed by Dulles and some unnamed 3 x 3 shooter team. If there are no alternative theories with supporting evidence, there's nothing to discuss

    So far all I've witnessed is an indulgence in denial/incredulity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    I dont think theres any evidence for a 2nd shooter. Theres no evidence whatsoever linking anyone but Oswald. With 3D modelling and photo and film restoration becoming so good in the last 15 years, you gradually see these theories fall away. A lot of the conspiracies you'll see today are still based on old grainy photos and video (ie the driver shot him) and Badgeman on the knoll, old documentaries like the Men Who Killed Kennedy etc. All easily disproved now.

    If there was a conspiracy, the place to look would be Oswalds summer in New Orleans. Apart from that summer, Oswalds whereabouts is basically accounted for every day in Dallas in the few months before the assassination.

    Although my opinion if anything, his behaviour in New Orleans rules out a conspiracy. Far too loud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    Just listened to the latest episode in the Who Killed JFK? podcast...just wondering The Nal from the last part of your post that you dont think Oswald had any links to the CIA?



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    Have you read de Mohrenschildt's "I'm a Patsy" memoir?

    He seems to share one similarity with Kennedy, in that he operated in ruthless business & political circles most of his life but later seemed to develop a conscience of some kind and began to find the whole scene corrupt & sick. 

    Now something unusual happened. A gray-suited, bulky, Miami suntanned, with false teeths and an artificial smile, Mr. W. James Wood, an Agent of FBI arrived in Port-au-Prince for the sole purpose to make me deny a statement I had made to my friends and to the political officer at the Embassy. What was this disturbing statement. It had contacted a government man in Dallas, the only one knew personally, probably a CIA agent, or possible an agent of FBI, very nice fellow by the name of J. Walton Moore. Looks like it's a specialty of these government agents to have a capital letter instead of the first name. Purely Anglo-Saxon, you know...Anyway Mr. J. Walton Moore had interviewed me upon my return from a government mission to Yugoslavia and we got along well. He had lived in China, was born there as a matter of fact, in a missionary family. So I invited him and his wife to the house and he got along fabulously well with Jeanne. I used to see Mr. Moore occasionally for lunch. A cosmopolitan character, most attractive. A short time after meeting Lee Harvey Oswald, before we became friends, I was a little worried about his opinions and his background. And so I went to see Mr. J. Walton Moore to his office, in the same building I used to have my own office, Reserve Loan Life Building on Ervay Street, and asked him point blank. "I met this young ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, is it safe to associate with him?" And Mr. Moore's answer was" "he is OK. He is just a harmless lunatic." – I’m a Patsy

    "That false statement of yours that a government man told you that our President's assassin was a harmless lunatic.."

    "false statement! man, you are out of your mind!" I answered sharply.

    And so the gray-suited man in no uncertain terms threatened me: "unless you change your statement, life will be tough for you in the States."

    "Nuts!" Was the only answer I could make  - I’m a Patsy

    Summary “I think De Mohrenschildt's main complaint is that the FBI had ruined his life and tapped his phones and harassed him because he stated that Lee was a patsy and that he admitted publicly that CIA agent Moore told him Lee was a harmless lunatic.”

    He died by suicide from JFK assassination investigation Subpoena.

    ------------------------

    The US, the opposite in size to Ireland was a country of 180 million then; De Mohrenschildt had an association with Oswald in Texas AND knew the following in Long Island/Manhattan:-

    “I think it was at that time that I told Lee that I had known Jacqueline Kennedy as a young girl, as well as her mother, father and all her relatives and how charming the whole family was, I especially liked "Black Jack" Bouvier, Jacquie's father, a delightful Casanova of Wall Street”.

    Knowing the Bouviers is fine, not that remarkable. Knowing them well but then associating closely with Oswald in 1962 is a lot more than remarkable!

    And this same fella is suicided years later after saying ‘the net is tightening’!

    But apparently it isn’t a conspiracy because there were no whistleblowers and no one else got killed!

    Post edited by Lucien_Sarti on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Havent listened to it myself, its on the list, but Ive never seen any evidence linking Oswald to the CIA.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭Butson


    The Rest is History Podcast just did a 6 parter on the assassination. Last episode deals with all the different conspiracies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    On the list aswell. Anything interesting or new in it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Not sure if there’s anything new, but I thought it was a good listen. There is a YouTuber called Sean Munger who had two good videos on the topic recently.

    As the movie JFK was a lot of people’s main exposure to the topic, this site looks at many of the claims made in the film

    https://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100menu.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    No, I haven't read the whole memoir.

    Over the years, I have read segments of it online. The life of George De Mohrenschildt has red flags that suggest he was a con man and a manipulative individual. He was married four times, and all four wives accused him of being an abusive and serial cheater. This pattern of behavior suggests that De Mohrenschildt may have also exploited those around him for his own financial gain. He wasn't poor by any means, but he was essentially someone whom CIA intelligence could use because of his love for money and willingness to do work for them.

    J Walton Moore and George spun the narrative that George went to his CIA friend, who happened to be the head of the CIA field office in Dallas, to inquire about Oswald. However, this narrative does not make sense unless one considers the other way Moore approached George to keep tabs on Oswald. There was literally no reason for George, who was interested in individuals who looked after him, to suddenly take an interest in Oswald, especially considering Oswald's declarations of being a Marxist. Even if you buy the official line on this, we have direct knowledge from this event alone that the CIA knew who Oswald was before the relationship started.

    The authorities in Yugoslavia had been monitoring George movements in 1957. They were suspicious of his intentions and suspected that he was conducting some sort of clandestine photography operation. The authorities believed that George was gathering sensitive information with the intention of passing it on to the CIA.. One of the key qualities that made George invaluable to the CIA was his adaptability and ability to establish relationships on the ground, at least in the early days before 1963.

    CIA assets come in many forms, with varying levels of visibility and direct involvement. Some assets may be recruited directly into the agency, while others may have pre-existing relationships with the CIA. One interesting case involves George and Ruth Paine, who were seemingly ordinary American citizens but were actually clandestine CIA assets.

    The Paines operated under a carefully crafted facade, maintaining the appearance of ordinary American citizens. The CIA implemented firewalls to ensure that there was no direct, solid proof linking the Paines to the agency as assets.George was likely brought into look after Oswald after he returned from Minsk; the CIA couldn't send an actual CIA person that would be well known to look after him in the open. However, after a certain period of time, George was traveling, and Ruth Paine and her husband took over the role of helping this couple.Ruth knew that she was helping the Oswald family for the CIA, and she likely told the truth that she did not like Lee all that much. Despite her reservations about Lee, her role was still to help him. She carefully introduced him to a job at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD).

    George shot himself when the HSCA came after him. However, it is important to note that George's death was not an isolated incident. Mob figures and civilians allegedly involved in the event or witnessing it were also being to die off. This raises serious questions about the extent of corruption and violence that surrounded the hearings conducted by the HSCA (House Select Committee on Assassinations). George started to panic when he realized HSCA might have something on him. The realization that his life could be in danger if the truth were to come out might have caused him great distress and anxiety and he couldn't handle the pressure of the cover-up anymore?

    According to the official narrative, Oswald was a socially isolated individual with limited financial resources. Yet, there are scenes depicted where individuals are helping him distribute flyers on the streets of New Orleans. The identities of these individuals are never revealed. The TV crew, with no apparent motive, suddenly made it their business to take a keen interest in a nobody who was handing out flyers on the streets.It is natural for anyone with a brain to raise suspicions when a TV crew actively positions themselves on the street and decides to film Oswald without bothering to ask any questions or seek clarification regarding his actions. 

    Oswald defection was probably a CIA-sponsored operation to gather information on the Soviet Union and its operations.He returned home, where they closely observed him and compensated him. He was then given another opportunity to serve his country in New Orleans and perhaps Mexico. After this incident, it seemed as though planners of the JFK assassination may have looked at Oswald and concluded that he could no longer contribute effectively. They decided to get rid of him. Depending on whom you talk to, Oswald is either the fall guy or one of the killers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    During the examination true, they probed the back wound to determine if it went deeper than initially observed. Their findings, as reflected in the autopsy report, stated that the hole did not appear to be too deep.

    I find it very odd that the entry wounds only measure 1.5cm in two places - Entry wound on Kennedy's head and Connally's shoulder/armpit entry wound.

    Lone gunman theorists have perpetuated numerous falsehoods regarding the Connally wound for decades, concealing the fact that there could not have been a sideways tumbling bullet. Wound is 1.5cm ( fact), not 3cm, they claim everywhere.

    The Oswald bullet + entry wound Kennedy back of the head and Connally shoulder/armpit, both measuring 1.5cm, raise questions about the official story. Two wounds do match Oswald's gun,

    Three other wounds do not. The throat wound, the back wound, and the side hit explosion are very different.

    Paul Landis was a Secret Service agent assigned to protect Kennedy during the fateful motorcade in Dallas. According to Landis, the magic bullet was resting on top of the cushion at the back of the limousine.Could it be that this bullet traveled through Kennedy's jacket, getting stuck between the jacket and his skin, and then being thrown out in the direction of the rear seat? Is the information credible? That's the problem right now, took too much time to come forward.

    A bullet hurtling through the back and out the throat, avoiding hitting any bones. It was a very lucky shot indeed. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    That is very interesting about De Mohrenschildt’s character. Yes, the memoir is written in a self-serving manner and he made very weak & contorted denials of being a CIA intermediary later. I’ve read a ¼ of it and one thing he does is humanise Oswald, who was very intelligent with a good sense of humour, a deep thinker but moody- character variations most people have.

    De Mohrenschildt is exactly the type of rare individual one would expect to find in a state conspiracy involving hundreds or low thousands of people. US intelligence services are, unfortunately for everyone, very competent at their role. The selection of intermediaries, handlers, assets is the non-glamourous, routine but ‘important’ work they do (it’s the same today). They get almost all of their selections right. But occasionally there is a glitch  due to unpredictable human factors. Given De Mohrenschildt’s status & background one would expect he would be the least likely type of individual to have any sympathy with Oswald -after he understood the implications of his (De M’s) involvement on 24th November. But he did have sympathy and told it like he saw it!

    I’d agree that most intermediaries don’t need to know the purpose of the operation they are on. For many, it probably appears as routine employee assistance or routine administration.

    Ruth Paine is the typical operative/intermediary: the chronically obedient, safe pair of hands. One could argue that it is worse if she didn’t know the purpose of the what she was doing with Oswald & family, but only realised it on the 22nd & 24th Nov.

    Imagine her thought process- “Oh so that’s it, this whole thing was about killing Kennedy. Ah well, the higher ups must have a good reason. Ok, what’s the next job?”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    So many words with so much waffle and so little said.

    This though

    According to the official narrative, Oswald was a socially isolated individual with limited financial resources. Yet, there are scenes depicted where individuals are helping him distribute flyers on the streets of New Orleans. The identities of these individuals are never revealed. The TV crew, with no apparent motive, suddenly made it their business to take a keen interest in a nobody who was handing out flyers on the streets.It is natural for anyone with a brain to raise suspicions when a TV crew actively positions themselves on the street and decides to film Oswald without bothering to ask any questions or seek clarification regarding his actions. 


    So all of this, again, is a lie. Or I should say, whatever website you ended up on when you Googled this is wrong.

    One of the men was called Charles Steele. Oswald asked 2 men queuing at the unemployment line, incuding Steele, to hand out flyers for 20 minutes for $2. Which they did.

    The TV crew were there because it was very unusual for an American to be handing out pro Castro leaflets at the time. Less than 2 years after the Cuban Missle Crisis. So when they heard about it they sent a camerman down, their HQ was close by.

    Good to know that a small local New Orleans TV station are also part of the conspiracy though! Lets add them to the pile.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    The presence of unidentified men seen with Lee Harvey Oswald is an undeniable fact. Charles Steele, who gave testimony to the HSCA investigation, provided crucial information regarding three men he saw when handing out flyers in New Orleans. According to Steele, he did not know three of the men, but he described one of them as a Cuban individual, another as a younger white man, and the third as an older gentleman watching. Steele identified the older gentleman as Clay Shaw to the HSCA when shown a photograph, but the names of the other two individuals remain unknown.

    The discovery that the Oswald flyers were printed in the very same building where the CIA-Anti-Cuban groups regularly met adds further weight to the theory that Oswald may have been involved in their activities.No one ever dares to question who would print off anti-American flyers and hand them to him, as it would expose the truth behind this fake event in New Orleans.

    The TV crew is not going to waste their time on Oswald unless they are told to go there by someone with pull. There is a individual who has the authority to direct the TV crew's attention to Oswald.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


     Ruth's sister, who worked at the CIA, further strengthened the intelligence connection. The involvement of Ruth's sister suggests a possible familial connection to the intelligence community, raising questions about the extent of Ruth's knowledge and involvement.

    Additionally, Ruth's husband, Michael Paine, had significant connections to military-industrial complexes. As a well-off businessman, Michael's connections with influential figures and organizations within the defense industry further deepen the intelligence ties surrounding Oswald and his family.

    Have to be Idiot Not to Notice CIA Was Keen to Have Families with Intelligence Backgrounds Look After the Oswald Family



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    So we've gone from you claiming that "The identities of these individuals are never revealed" to now, someone who was identified and interviewed by the Warren Commission - Charles Steele.

    You're clearly just googling this as you go along.

    Also, Oswald got those flyers printed by a company called the Jones Printing Company in New Orleans.

    They had nothing to do with where "CIA-Anti-Cuban groups regularly met". Absolutely nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    People with Lee who are unidentified: Why aren't they found here?

    You have no interest in learning why they are not found here.

    Lee and his accomplices messed up big time. The addresses on the flyers they distributed were changed, and the reason for that is quite clear.

    Oswald was operating out of 554 Camp Street. As a result, the address had to be changed ( too much exposure)

    Oswald seemingly had enough money to cover the cost of printing and renting places, which has never been adequately explained. This raises questions about his source of funding, as it is not readily apparent how he could afford these expenses.

    Jones Company printed a third flyer for Oswald, allegedly, but there is no evidence that those two flyers were printed by the this company before.  I am open to being mistaken, provide your sources on that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Yeah so you lied again.

    We've been over this 544 Camp St stuff.

    Oswald never operated out of there. Another pathetic lie from you. But Carlos Bringuier did at one stage. Oswald knew this. He tried to infiltrate Bringuiers anti Castro group to impress the Fair Play for Cuba committee in New York. Theres letters back and forth to prove this.

    He stamped 544 Camp St on some of the flyers. Maybe just one. He didnt get them printed with that address on them. And he did it to provoke Bringuier into a fight in pubic. Which happened and they all got arrested for it. What Oswald wanted.

    Heres Oswald 2 weeks later - because of the publicity he created - in a debate with Bringuier on local radio. WDSU. The same people who filmed him handing out leaflets.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    544 Camp Street was previously home to the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC), which was a front organization for the Cuban exiles. The CRC was actively involved in anti-Cuban revolutionary activities and was closely tied to the CIA. The New York branch advised him not to set up a branch and he wrote back saying he was going to do it anyway.

    Oswald's name appears on the flyers, promoting his branch of an organization, with that 544 camp street address. . Why would he go to such lengths to create a false impression and mislead? Promoting his branch as a physical location that does not exist?It appears that he is reciting a script or following a predetermined agenda. This insincerity suggests that Oswald lacks a genuine belief in what he is saying.

    You have no evidence he only printed one flyer with this address, you are only saying it was one in order to try and make it all go away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    You clearly havent a clue what youre talking about.

    Go read up a bit about Oswald in New Orleans.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    Paraphrasing from de mohrenschildt’s memoir: “ The Jet set, cafe society , Establishment of which I was part are boring the world over, however - Lee was interesting”

    This would be the equivalent of a €500,000 pa AIB managerial type  by chance striking up an association with an €11 an hour shelf stacker in Dunnes stores and finding him interesting & having common cause. 

    De M’s father was apparently saved by the nazis; so he had the mindset of the Gusanos in Florida (who’s families owned sugar plantations in Cuba with virtual slaves and that nasty social justice fella Castro took away all their profitable fun)!

    On paper him & LHO should have nothing in common.

    Other snippets:  Lee - the us is run by the FBI / hoover (said sardonically) in a discussion about living in the US.

    Any gestapo/fbi/cia manager would choose De M as an intermediary in 62 but not one would choose him once they knew what he turned out like after nov 63!

    De M was no doubt a slippery character. But he was persistent as regards the innocence of Oswald. How awkward for the lone gunman theory/conspiracy/theory - the best approach for them being to ignore him & his suicide- it doesn’t fit with the tightly curated evidence presentation as a simple ‘who done it’ episode of Columbo (Peter Falk).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Well he wasnt ignored was he? His testimony to the Warren Commission is nerly 200 pages long.

    Heres 270 pages on him from the HSCA


    And heres 33 pages on him released from the JFK Files

    More here


    Hes one of the most investigated people of the assassination and therefore one of the most ivestigated people in human history!



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    So Moore is confirmed CIA and says he did meet De M many times but not after 1961. I judge Moore & the CIA to be lying about this.

    The files clearly show the CIA using gangsters & crooks  to supply arms to destabilise target countries around the Caribbean. The US gangster state has an advantage of course that it can throw such crooks in prison to avoid paying them for their work.

    This was in one of the files: Dryer said Lancelot said “$250,000 was lodged to a De Mohrenschildt bank account shortly after the assassination”.

    This is just left there without further context or comment by the CIA. This is not helping the official narrative!

    In 1976 the CIA claim they dropped interest in De M in the mid sixties. Again, I say they are lying about that.

    The CIA also admits here that they used De M’s brother Dimitri as a foreign intelligence contact from April 1950. 

    When you add this to their farcical behaviour with the HSCA that Cheerful S pointed out (which they always get away with), in these files, the CIA simply deny they used De M as an intermediary with LHO. 

    Given that the CIA are a pack of lowlife liars, why does anyone take this at face value?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,202 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Yes the CIA are a dodgy shower alright. Involved in all sorts of covert actions. And very good at it.

    So, why would the CiA let their chosen assassin carry out the most important assassination in history with a $12 rifle?

    And then allow him to randomly run around Dallas for a couple of hours after? And allow him to be arrested and questioned for 2 days?

    De Mohrenschildt moved to Haiti when Oswald was in New Orleans. Never saw him again and theres no proof he ever spoke to him after that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Lucien_Sarti


    I don’t think he was one of the assassins. He was planned as the fall guy from the beginning. I would like to know all of 22 - 24 November from his perspective i.e. what did he think was going on that day (there are plenty of theories going back to Garrison). although most of his movements & behaviours are known, not all are. 

    It was a mistake that he survived for 48 hours. No plan works perfectly.

    Isn’t it slightly more than strange that the richest country in history couldn’t tape record or film the many interviews with LHO. Maybe the reason was - what he was saying was  brutally incriminating to the real conspirators! He had to be out of the picture asap!

    Without a fall guy to distract, people would quickly see through whatever farce of a repeatedly botched, repeated cul-de-sac investigation was thrown up to them. That he is still being talked about 60 years later shows what a successful strategy a fall guy was. Having said that, for a 20 year period from the early 80’s only an average of 15% of USians believed the official Lone Gunman theory. This figure is rising lately as young USians don’t know or care who JFK was!

    Yes, as Cheerful said, Paine took over the role from De M after he played his part in helping LHO’s slow journey to the target location.



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