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Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,630 ✭✭✭brickster69


    UN Secretary General invokes Article 99 of the UN charter for the first time.

    "Article 99 states that 'the Secretary-General may bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security."

    This calls for a resolution and vote at the security council. Hands up if you want to be a global pariah.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,614 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Ah sure look, more of the same. Arbitrarily come up with your own definitions to suit your own agenda whenever you like and try to claim they are the only meanings. It's constant. Over and over again.


    I have no time for RBB, but you don't get to decide what he meant just to suit your own agenda. Maybe he did mean a call for violence. Who knows. I merely told you the fact that intifada does not necessarily mean violence. You don't like that, but you are wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,614 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    As I said, keep bringing it up and highlighting your mistake if you wish. That is completely your prerogative.


    Logic may not be a strong point, but a statement that "Intifada does not necessarily mean violence" is not negated in any way, shape or form by giving some link to something which involved violence. It would negate a statement that "Intifada never means violence", but that is not what was said. I even provided you with a link giving you the etymology of the term.

    Let me give you an example which is closer to home. The statement "Winning an All Ireland does not necessarily mean you have to score a goal" is not negated by a link showing Dublin beat Mayo by 2-14 to 0-15 in 2020.


    But feel free to keep highlighting you were wrong.



  • Posts: 0 Nola Scary Hair


    Rubbish. You pulled up a dictionary definition, dated 1989, which obviously was before the events of the second intifada. You can argue away to your hearts content over an irrelevant definition that means nothing in the real world. Palestinian intifada is violent. Fact.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,614 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It's very childish to keep throwing your toys out of the pram. As I said, we are back to the Varadkar "lost" sh1te. You don't get to decide what meanings can and cannot be assigned to other people's words - when multiple meanings are possible and understood by rational people - just because a particular interpretation suits your agenda today.

    I've already explained it to you multiple times. And given you an example of Mayo getting beaten which should have made it easier to understand. If you want me to give you other similar examples to explain the logic, I can do that too. Even if I just used examples of Mayo being beaten in finals I'd have enough to keep going for hours. But we'd be going around in circles. And I don't see the point.


    And to make you happier, here is a recent source. Wikipedia from just now


    Feel free to correct it to restrict the meaning to your definition if you want.


    The statement I made that "Intifada does not necessarily mean violence" is correct. QED. You are tilting at windmills



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It's absolutely shockingly disgusting what Israel is openly engaged in. But I think most/ all 'western states' have distanced themselves by this stage from the continuing slaughter and destruction of housing and infrastructure.

    This will come back to haunt Israel, you reap what you sow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭Sir_Name




  • Posts: 0 Nola Scary Hair


    There a bit of hole in your argument. You’re obsessing with a pretty narrow definition of intifada in an attempt to score a (rather irrelevant) point. Here’s what Boyd Barrett said:

    South Africa, Vietnam and Algeria are examples of violent resistance. It’s not possible to say RBB was talking exclusively about a non-violent intifada if he’s referencing these countries. My point about Palestinian intifada still stands: it’s violent, especially in the context of actual historical events, and not according to some abstract definition in a dictionary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,614 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump




    Again, you are wrong.

    Intifada does not necessarily mean violence

    You can ask that tool what he meant if you like. but neither you nor RBB gets to redefine the meaning so that my statement is rendered incorrect. The statement does not purport to constrain what you can only mean when you use the word, nor does it purport to constrain what RBB can only mean when he uses the word. It is a factually correct statement that the word does not necessarily mean violence.


    Not to be giving you a history lesson, but there was also non-violent resistance in the countries names against their colonial oppressors. So your conclusion may not be as sound as you think. That's an aside and irrelevant to the logic above.



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  • Posts: 0 Nola Scary Hair


    You chose to have an argument over a (narrow) definition over what intifada might or might not mean. I never mentioned originally intifada on it’s own, just RBB invoking the term. Considering he used it in the context of especially bloody conflicts like Algeria and Vietnam, you can’t claim he was talking about it in non-violent terms only.

    You can’t say i was wrong about anything, since i wasn’t interested about a definition of the term. You turned it into that, which was irrelevant to the discussion at large IMO.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    What part of the Palestinian Authority encouraging and sponsoring terrorism and suicide bombings by paying pensions to the families of these deluded murderers do you have difficulty understanding?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Quite correct.

    There is an existential threat to Western civilisation and in particular to women's and LGBTQ+ rights emanating from the Middle East, and it is not coming from Israel.

    As for China, their aim is to make the fictionalised worlds of 1984 and Brave New World a reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    What??? There is being fooled by Hamas propaganda and there is enthusiastically embracing it.

    Do you remember that the doctors told us that there were no Hamas in the hospital? And then we saw the CCTV.

    Do you remember that the doctors told us that there were no tunnels under the hospital? And then we saw the videos of the tunnels.

    The doctors living under the Hamas regime have been lying every day since October 7th. I am not going to judge whether that was because of fear of reprisal from the Hamas terrorists or whether they were enthusiastically supporting the Hamas terrorists, but there is no doubt they lied.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    We all know who they are afraid of. We've heard them fear for their lives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    You are assuming that they knew what was going on. That's a huge assumption. The doctors are the people who stayed with the dying and injured, the babies in the incubators and the seriously injured women. They were the last to leave because they stood by their principles and their oath.

    The fact that this is being discussed at all is mad. It's just an effort to have their reputations tarnished for when the truth comes out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Ah come on, that is a ridiculous position. The doctors were on every western tv news programme denying that there were tunnels when it is now clear that was a lie.

    You are making them out to be fools rather than being afraid for their lives of Hamas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,127 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    So, you don't think the doctors are afraid of Hamas?

    Do you think anyone is afraid of Hamas?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So why were they giving opinons stating there were no hamas or no tunnels when they were either lying, under duress or didnt have a clue - such opinions are without merit or foundation. Which is exactly why it has been said people should attach no extra weight to such claims just because it comes from a doctor or medical staff.

    But yet you have a problem with that for ... baffling reasons.

    If they dont know whats going on - your words - then why are they making statements acting as if they do?

    They tarnish their own reputation by making false statements or statements without foundation in interviews. Say nothing, and let the truth come out.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    From memory, doctors didn't say there were no tunnels but they had seen no evidence of Hamas fighters or weapons inside the hospital.

    Interesting that the regime discovered no CCTV footage of Hamas men inside the Al Shifa hospital, even though they found months worth of footage, going back before and after October 7th.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Again it's the IDF they are afraid of. No other organisation is bombing hospitals or killing thousands of women and children. The doctors protected their hospitals and patients even under fire. The Israelis dug most of the tunnels at the hospitals anyway. It is quite possible that the doctors didn't even know about them anyway. Trying to blacken doctors reputations is a new low.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Of course they are but its the IDF who are attacking them and posing the threat to the patients in the hospitals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Simply because they are between a rock and a hard place. Probably trying to save their patients from bombing attacks. They are in a very dangerous situation from two sets of murderers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    A new low?

    We have had rape apologists and denials all today but 'tarnishing' the reputation of doctors who made false statements (for whatever reasons) is a new low?

    Just because they are doctors?

    Maybe for you.

    In the real world doctora can lie, commit crimes, be mistaken, duped or threatened under duress to lie... as any other profession. And pointing this out is not tarnishing their reputations.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,127 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Ok, thank you.

    It seems entirely reasonable to me that they would be terrified of Hamas terrorists. I couldn't blame them, and I wouldn't blame them either if they lied about things in order to protect themselves and their patients, from terrorists in their hospital!



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So that seems to suggest they lied then? For whatever reasons.

    But proves why doubting their statements on such matters is not tarnishing the reputation of doctors.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Of course it is tarnishing their reputations. Did every doctor make some kind of statement?



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover




  • Registered Users Posts: 30,085 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nope. How is it tarnising their reputation?

    What reputation is being tarnished?

    You state it but never explain it.

    Your own posts seem to imply that it is valid to doubt and question doctors statement on such matters. You said they may not have had a clue. Or did so to protect themselves or their patients.

    Given below comments from you why is it tarnishing their reputation to suggest they are either deceived or not being fully truthful?

    And therefore it is entirely valid to question statements from sources in such a situation?

    There is no way your statements below can be reasonably taken to mean that we should always accept as accurate statements from medical staff in such a situation

    Eg You are assuming that they knew what was going on.

    Eg They are between a rock and a hard place. Probably trying to save their patients from bombing attacks. They are in a very dangerous situation from two sets of murderers.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    The existential threat to the west comes from Israel committing genocide and western governments supporting it, meaning that trust in politics in the west will collapse and be exploited by people allied to Russia, namely Trump, the AFD in Germany, Le Pen in France and various other crackpots around Europe.

    The existential threat comes from a collapse in the west's morals in order to defend interests. If you only defend interests, your moral failings will lead to your destruction from within. Any claim you have to be the upholder of what is morally right in the world falls away, it becomes laughable. This is what happened when the US and the UK invaded Iraq.

    Supporting Ukraine when it was invaded by Russia was about supporting interests, but much more importantly it was about supporting morals. The cause of Ukraine had moral righteousness on its side. The cause of Israel and the rhetoric of Israel is basically the same as the cause and rhetoric of Russia. Morally bankrupt.

    This is a disaster for the west. You cannot defend genocide and claim to be the upholder of what is morally right. Your supposed "values" have been shown to be a transparent fraud.



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