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Landlord refusing to repay a penny of deposit

  • 07-12-2023 8:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    My sister's has been renting for the last year, her Landlord is not registered with RTB, he has multiple properties.

    She has not been able to get the Renters Tax Credit due to tenancy not being registered. She has been sharing with another woman, both professionals in their 30's.

    She is going abroad for Winter and gave her notice, so did her friend who is moving in with boyfriend.

    She is very clean and neat and got the property professionally cleaned yesterday. Landlord and his girlfriend called over and have said they are NOT returning any of the deposit due to:

    1. watermarks on the coffee table from glasses of water and a few watermarks on sideboard from indoor plants
    2. a burn the size of a euro coin on the worktop (literally, I've seen it). Landlord is claiming they need to replace the entire worktop
    3. some marks on the wall from the self adhesive photo stickers..........there are about 8 nail sized marks from these stickers.

    That is it. Landlord is claiming the full depost of €1200 PLUS extra to cover the replacement of the entire worktop!! Surely this is excessive and is normal wear and tear. Who replaces an entire kitchen worktop because of a small burn close to the hob? He is going to send on the quote for a new worktop tomorrow!

    She has missed out on the Renters Tax credit due to property not being registered. Now she is losing her entire deposit. Can she threaten to report him to RTB and Revenue if he keeps all her money?

    Thanks

    Post edited by L1011 on


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,684 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    They burned the kitchen worktop?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,407 ✭✭✭Homer


    You have two separate issues. Let her pursue him via the rtb in relation to the tax credit. But, if she burned the countertop in my property and left marks on a coffee table I would be keeping the deposit 100%.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,684 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Water rings means a coffee table not fit for purpose. Withholding a deposit for water rings is laughable.

    Burning holes in counter tops is an entirely different matter



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No need to threaten. Just report the landlord to RTB and revenue. They can pay tax like the rest of us.

    a photo of the burn would be helpful. A small sauce pan burn is wear and tear. If they set the worktop on fire, that might be a different story



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 730 ✭✭✭SVI40


    A sauce pan burn on a counter top is not wear and tear, it's stupidity. Who the hell puts a hot pan onto a worktop?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭Iodine1


    Her own lookout for not being registered, she should have been looking for her tax credit long ago, you can try the RTB now and hope for the best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    its not even a small saucepan burn, its like a burn from a hot spoon. Its not the entire worktop, its the size of a bottle top.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,949 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    How do you expect the landlord to repair the worktop? Replacing the whole thing seems the only thing possible.

    Or do you just expect them to accept the burn?



  • Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭ Mary Screeching Veil


    Sorry OP but the worktop counter is fair enough imo. It’s his house and it was damaged by your sister.

    if someone came to my house and burned a hole of any size in my counter I’d flip my lid.

    As for the furniture it’s a bit over the top honestly, it could prob be sanded out, but at the same time your sister could’ve used a coaster.

    As for the marks on the paint while they may seem superficial to you, indeed all of this appears to be superficial to you and your sister, it is not your property and the landlord has to consider prospective tenants and how they might see these things during a viewing.

    For me at least it would signal poor property maintenance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    water marks...really ? And the burn is the size a wine bottle top. You would keep 1200euro for that?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    she did ask in the Summer, twice, both times he said he was looking into it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 914 ✭✭✭mykrodot


    I'm really just here to ask the question. I am not up for aggression in replies. Thanks for the feedback. It seems its her loss .





  • Unfortunately without a legally registered tenancy she is relatively at a loss. Getting the exact right paint match on the walls with one of those pots of sample paint neatly applied, could solve the wall problem. Watermarks on the tables, presuming a wooden top, should be diminished with a suitable glaze, that she could apply with landlord’s consent. The burn mark is another issue, but I’m quite sure there could be a cosmetic application. It would seem fair to me that part of deposit might be retained, but maybe not all of it if rest of place is ok. I speak as a landlord myself, a properly registered one. Your sister can always contact Revenue/RTB re illegal status of landlord, this kind of thing needs to combatted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Hot spoons don't melt workstops. The burning point of a worktop is alot higher. They burnt it with something like a pot or dish touching it.

    A countertop for the top and labour would be around 1200.

    She needs to cop herself on frankly and I'm normally on tenants side having been burned excuse the pun by a landlord where there was hand on heart not an ounce of damage. She was a toffy charlatan in a range rover and we were young an naive handing over a practically dry cleaned home.


    In your case your sister melted a countertop and can't use coasters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    You have to think from another angle, how would you like me staying over in your home and burning your countertop? How would you feel @mykrodot?

    Remember the shills only get paid when you react to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29 PierreLeCake


    Your sister can still lodge a complaint with the RTB and make her case. Its does n 't matter if the landlord is registered or not the complaint will be dealt with. I 'm sure the RTB would take a dim view of a landlord who is not registered.

    A person who does not comply with their responsibility to register their tenancy/ tenancies faces a criminal conviction and a fine of up to €4000 and/ or 6 months imprisonment, if convicted. This might soften her landlords cough if its pointed out to him. Suddenly giving back a €1200 deposit whether merited or not is looking like a bargain

    Does she have any kind of lease agreement as evidence. Its also possible the landlord is registered. The RTB website is a disgrace and information on it can be completely inaccurate.

    My understanding was a tenant can still claim Tax Relief even if a landlord is not registered.

    Its worth checking out - https://itasaccounting.ie/general/rent-credit-for-unregistered-tenancies/

    The Tax Credit was a sneaky way of getting Tenants to rat out non compliant landlords to Revenue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    They'd probably be less bothered if you had given them tens of thousands of Euros to come over and stay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    She could fix the counter and table.

    Also appeal to the RTB. Tenants don't have to be registered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,684 ✭✭✭✭lawred2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,407 ✭✭✭Homer


    It’s not up to the tenant to decide on just doing a repair job. I’d want a new worktop.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,434 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The tenancy doesn't need to be registered with thd rtb to get the credit: just fill in what you know and leave the rest blank.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    They could offer to repair the damage and get their full deposit back,I think they would find it cost them alot more that way.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    They paid for a service. The LL didn’t get handed money for nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Doesn't negate my statement in any way, shape, or form.

    I'm sure that the odd person would still be after their pound of flesh like a dog with a bone regardless, but most reasonable people would be less bothered if they had received tens of thousands of Euros compared to a scenario where they had received nothing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,383 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    Tell her to get her own quote for replacing the countertop with one of the equivalent quality (not granite or marble!) and the coffee table and see if she can negotiate.

    Is all of the deposit hers, or is it split with her roommates?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    See what the RTB value it at.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,228 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You seem to be looking at the $1200 as a excessive "fine" for the damage. That's not how it works. It's the landlords property that your sister has damaged. The deposit is to cover the costs of replacing or repair. There is no cheap or easy way to do that repair.

    Watermarks might been minor, but it is also damage. Most likely its a cheap table and it's more cost effective to replace. Stickers on the wall will need to be cleaned. A bit lazy that your sister didn't bother to do that.

    These might seem minor to you, but the cost of correcting these is at least 1200.


    Depends how hot the spoon was. Not from a cup of tea that's for sure



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,562 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    The landlord needs to provide receipts, they can't just decide that's the price. It might work out as much less than that depending on the location of the burn. The kind of crap marmoleum counter tops that landlords tend to put in are cheap and if it's a small section it might be a small job to replace. Bit weird that you would agree that's the price without having seen it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,228 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Where did I say suggest the landlord decides the price? The OP literally confirms that the landlord will be providing the quote/invoice as evidence. I'm basing my opinion on professional experience, that's pretty normal I'd have thought. It would actually be pretty weird if we needed to see the counter to discuss it.

    Marmoleum is midrange as a counter material. More expensive than synthetic laminates. Are you thinking of formica? That would be the standrd cheapo counter. I wasn't assuming it would be anything more premium that that tbh.

    It probably is a small section, but countertops are made in fixed lengths typically 2.4m to 3.6m. So you have to by a whole section whether its 1m or 3m. The costs is the labour, not the material supply. They'll need to measure and cut the counter, maybe remove and refit the hob in a new cut out, and reseal the new hob. It's not a big job, but all those little things add up. Plus repair/replace the coffee table and side board. Repair/Clean the walls. There's als oa premium leaving these to the landlord, rather than OP fixing it themselves. If they coud have fixed it all for 400, I'm sure they would have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 719 ✭✭✭Whatwicklow


    @OP Was there an expectation the LL would have just sucked this up (or not noticed) is that why the property wasn't reinstated to its previous condition?


    It seems odd that there is a surprise of a with holding on the deposit



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The RTB will decide if the damage is more than normal wear and tear.

    There are companies who spot repair kitchen worktops. Also places who repair furniture from water marks. Though its probably cheaper to replace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,668 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    if he's not registered please report him, annoys me as someone who registers the tenancy, has a ber cert (new one needed next year it will go down due to changes in the ber system), electrical cert (every 5 years), boiler service every year, had several council inspections. that there still seems to be loads of landlords who don't register.

    most of my tenants do some damage but they are usually their for a few years it's wear and tear.

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Are you sure they arent registered with the RTB. Ive had a few friends claim they werent registered with the RTB but it turned out they were. The RTB dont have the best reputation for keeping their registrations up to date.

    If I did the damage to a rental property (or any property i happened to be in) that is outlined in the RTB I would get it repaired myself. None of that is normal wear and tear. It could all have been avoided by treating the property with care. If you owned the house you would not have been that careless would you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,562 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Agreeing with it being at least 1200 without seeing it is not reasonable, it feels like you're advising the op to just accept this demand, maybe that's not your intent.

    I probably am thinking of formica. Last time I installed one of those before covid it was something like €80 for 4m, I see now that's gone up to €195 which is crazy in fairness. But again it might not even involve replacing the section around the hob, we have next to no information.

    Those other things sound like standard wear and tear, if the op can fix them great but it's not something a landlord can take from a deposit.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I'd say good look getting a tradesman to replace a worktop for under a grand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's a bit like getting your car replaced because you got a dent in it.

    It's a rental. Will you be replacing the worktop every time a tenant damages it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Rental anything has a much harder life than your own property.

    Anyone who thinks a tenant is going to look after a property as if it's their house is too delicate to last as a LL.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If someone else dented it, you would want them to pay for repair though, and if it couldn’t be repaired, to be replaced.

    Few of us would have the know how, or luck to be able to get the exact match, and fit it, cheaply. Paying an expert do do something is always going to be more expensive than DIY, and we all know that tradespeople are charging a premium at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    So you would replace the whole car for a dent. Makes sense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Lol. You think you can repair a lam worktop to remotely look as it was before the person severely damaged it.


    I've lived in numerous places over my years never managed to melt a sideboard. Its not normal wear and tear. It's clumsy and you pay to repair it to original. The same as someone would repair to have your car to original before they crashed into you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,228 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    If you want to suggest my opinion is unreasonable, you're going to have to provide a bit more to back that up. I simply gave my opinion, not advice.

    OP was clearly of the view that being small in size should reduce the cost, I was pointing out that is not the case. Replacing a section means replacing the whole section. Whether it's a 1" burn, or a 6" burn, the cost to replace is the same.

    I probably am thinking of formica. Last time I installed one of those before covid it was something like €80 for 4m, I see now that's gone up to €195 which is crazy in fairness. But again it might not even involve replacing the section around the hob, we have next to no information.

    €80 lol. Living in the past there. I was basing it on €180+ depending on range. Plus delivery, labour, travel, etc. It might not involve the hob, but it might involve the hob and the sink. We don't need detailed information, we aren't providing quotes to the OP. The landlord will do that (which you missed). Also, €1,200 is not the costs, it's the full deposit. It could cost more, as you said, we have no information. we're not really trying to put a precise figure on it.

    Those other things sound like standard wear and tear, if the op can fix them great but it's not something a landlord can take from a deposit.

    If the OP can fix them, they should not be penalised. But they didn't fix them, so pretty moot. Wear and tear is normal, and not every defect needs replacing or repairing. But somebody who thinks thinks a burnt counter top is normal, is perhaps not the benchmark we are aiming for



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You can spot repair a dent.

    As a landlord are you saying you've never had tenants do anything other than give a property back in pristine condition after a year or more. I don't believe you.

    Because that's the only perspective that matters. Not that you've never broken a oven door, or spilt something on a carpet.

    Let the RTB decide. That's exactly what they are for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I wouldn't be replacing a worktop for a small mark in a rental. Might get it repaired but I wouldn't be so precious about it.

    Tenant tries to get deposit back, landlord try to use it to offset damage. RTB decides what's appropriate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I'm not a landlord. And you can't spot fix a melted sideboard. It looks like shite.

    Don't assume I'm a landlord because i think it's unreasonable for someone to melt a sideboard and ruin a coffee table and expect a full deposit back.

    I wouldn't do this in my home why would I do it to others and pretend it's grand.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Ask for the deposit back or else she will report to revenue and RTB. He isn't handing it over willingly. Watermarks are wear and tear and to be honest, easily repairable, as is the spot repair on a counter. She will owe him a small amount or he can give her the option to repair before leaving if that the only damage he has noted. They are simple fixes based on the description.



  • Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭ Mary Screeching Veil


    That’s all that happens in this forum if you don’t get up on a high horse and shout down all landlords for everything because they’re all bad.

    If you don’t shout them down you must be one of them. It’s not that you’re a reasonable individual.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    If someone else dented your car though would you expect them to pay for it or would you just leave it and let them walk off - assuming it wasnt some randomer that did it and walked off when you were doing the shopping :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Theres wear and tear and there is damage. I dont know how you put a hole in a counter top put of wear and tear no matter what kind of idiot you are. I figure if i cant respect a rental im renting, i should expect anyone else to be able to do that too. Common decency would make me repair anything i break myself without waiting til im "caught".



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