The distance debate

so how far are you hitting 😁

A lot of holes, particularly par 5s, allow you to take a line that shortens the yardage if you can hit it far enough. So on a 500 yard par 5, you might only be hitting it 470 or 480 because you can cut a corner. It has become more common to be able to take these lines because of increased distance.

Plus you have variables like run, the front of the green being 15 yards from the middle so that's more distance off.

P-Avg discounts the mishits, really bad shots etc.. That's obviously total distance and not carry. The P-Avg for the irons are also mostly off the tee, so I'm not hitting it that far from the fairway. I play with plenty of guys that hit it as far and further than me. My handicap is 6.

I don't know how old you are but I think it's an age thing too, not in terms of being younger and stronger but with older clubs and balls, centre strikes and accuracy were more important so people didn't swing as hard. Now the equipment is so forgiving that you can swing much harder because mishits aren't that bad. So you grow up trying to hit it hard which naturally increases your swing speed.

I'm in my 30s, I see lads in their early 20s who might only be off 12 to 16 but can hit it a mile.

Yeah, I agree. It doesn't fit with my experience at all. Personally, I'd (9 handicap) be looking at 370-380yds for two shots - driver + 3ir rescue/5w. No way am I (or any of my partners) getting on 500yd par 5 in two. That's the preserve of the very low handicappers (<2) in our club.

If you can comfortably hit the ball 500yds in two shots (280 drive + 220 wood/iron) then you're either a very low handicapper or you have a truly woeful short game.

Par 4s seem to max out at about 410-420 on the top courses off the whites - at least have being being less that 400. A drive of 270-280 will leave you with a short iron to these. Question is, why are all these long hitters such bad golfers????

Playing off 13 i can hit a 500 par 5 in 2 shots but that's only if I smash the granny off it off the tee and nail my second. More often than not, I'm blocked out or in rough. Being able to do something and consistently putting yourself in that position to take it on in 2, are very different things.

I really don't think the ball change is going to make a difference to the majority of average golfers. Look at the dispersion for amateurs. How many amateur golfers are actually flushing their shots hitting the sweet spot even more than 50% of the time. Lower handicaps obviously more often but your mid to high handicaps I very much doubt it. Bad ball strikes hurt an amateurs distance more than the golf ball itself ever will.

The USGA supposedly did studies previously and the finding was that people hitting the ball shorter will actually make rounds longer.

Roll back for amateurs makes no sense to me, it can only have a negative impact. You're basically penalising Average Joe golfer for the abilities of the elite golfers (even when Paddy is talking about it, hes talking about elite amateurs).

Look at the stats. The average drove distance for a 5 hcap golfer is actually around 240 yards.

The roll back won't just impact driver, it'll impact all clubs.

Say they do a 5% decrease. The 5 hcap now averages 228 yards off the tee.

Take a 400 yard par 4. Working with averages, they used to have:

240 drive

160 approach (let's say that's a 7i for the example)

Now they have

228 drive

172 approach (that used to be their 6i say, go with a 12 yard gap for irons)

But their 6i now only travels 163 yards (as thats also reduced by 5%), so they now have to hit a 5i to reach the green.

So Driver-7i becomes Driver-5i for an average 5 hcap.

If I look at myself (I'm closer to a 7 than a 5 hcap, but in the range), my GIR with a 7i is 64%, with a 5i its 33%

So for me, it means less GIR, so likely more shots, and longer rounds.

And that's looking at 5hcap numbers. Look at a 15 hcap say, as that's closer to the average golfer.

They average 220 off the tee (getting all my data from Arccos which is hundreds of thousands of data points before any starts shouting that their a 20 index that averages 250 off the tee)

The 220 now becomes 209. The same 400 yard par 4 that was, say,

220 drive, 180 hybrid

Becomes domething like:

209 drive, 191 3 Wood

Their GIR goes from somewhere around 16% to somewhere closer to 10%

Padraigs suggestion of roll back on number of clubs would be an interesting one, go back to only 10 clubs in the bag.

Acushnet have been the most public anti rollback of the OEMs by some distance so I wouldn't read anything at all into what they say (or any OEM for that matter) on this debate. It was OEMs who and pros who refused to accept bifurcation so if you've an issue with this thats where your ire should be directed, not the USGA/R & A. I've no issue with the rollback personally, very unlikely to make much difference to anyone but the best AMs or those with very fast swing speeds. We've yet to see how it will be implemented but any coverage i've seen is that it will not be linear as the above post suggests. USGA posted a screen that shows average male amateur will lose 3-5 yards so a negligible difference. If it makes the pro game more interesting and starts putting long irons back in players hands at the majors and big PGA events then I can see no argument against it.

Interestingly what is most likely to happen is that top level golf will become even more elite and reserved for more athletic specimens. The pros have 4 years to prepare for this. You can bet your house that each and every one of them will be in the gym packing on muscle and speed training for the next 4 years to offset any distance loss.

Your average mid handicap weekend warrior who has a wife / husband and kids won't have the time to transform their physicality to earn back the lost yards. That's where the real difference will come about. The pros will have the resources to adapt. Most amateurs won't.

The affect on the ladies game will be even bigger. How many of the female members of your course hit the ball 'too far'? Likely that most need all the distance they can get. Same for seniors, they've lost their physical prowess and can't get it back. This is a bifurcation in that it will have very little effect at PGA tour level and the most effect on those who are at the margins of the game.

And for what? 11yds loss to the PGA tour pro per drive? A total of 154yd per round maximum. Hardly going to save St. Andrews with that? This myth of the pros hitting it 'too far' was around with Nicklaus, Miller, Greg Norman etc.... The big, athletic guys always hit it far. And that has always been an advantage.

Stupid way to go about protecting historic courses IMHO. I hate this idea that there's a 'correct' way to play a course. There's only one correct way, take as few strokes as possible.

The people complaining and they're probably using a ball that has been sitting in a lake for 2 years. Or a cut up ball

Don't even know where to start here. First, this is not intended to bring back historic courses into the rotation and they have already accepted that within 10-20 years this rollback will have been overcome by elite players. The point of this is basically to maintain the status quo for a while, they've already said they'll be revisiting this and expect something similar will be required in the future. Its not going to change how pros play St Andrews but that is not its aim. You're making counter points to an argument that nobody on the rollback side is making.

The average male amateur is going to lose 3-5 yards on their driver. If you think the average male amateur can even tell the difference between a drive they hit right now that goes 220 and one that goes 215 then you are living in a dream world. They're not going to be able to tell a blind bit of difference if you gave them a rolled back ball and a non rolled back ball tomorrow. Seniors are going to notice it even less and ladies are losing 1-3 yards on average with their driver, seriously like how you think any club member is going to notice this is beyond me. Their might be some very low players(and i mean scratch or plus at minimum) who hit the ball a long way that might start to notice it but that is a very, very small number in your average club.

As another poster said, nobody will be able to notice the difference but it'll be another excuse for shite play.

No because thats not what will happen, elite long iron play isn't rewarded anymore because its not required. Result being that only the likes of Rory, Rahm etc. are actually good at it. Look at Rorys finish to last years scottish open, him and McIntyre hit incredible long irons into greens and made tap in birdies. The majority of the field can't do that, thats what i want to see. Elite iron play should be rewarded, there'll still be plenty of holes where you'll see wedges to 5 feet, this won't change that. But there might just a few more times where a par 5 isn't Driver, 7iron. Tour pros hitting 3 woods into par 5s is a fantastic sight but you rarely see it anymore. Anything that brings that potentially back into play on a few holes is great. Most tour players are very good with short irons, but thats boring to watch (for me anyway) and not as challenging. Go back and watch masters tournaments from the early 90s, they still hit the ball really close, just not as many of them were able to do it. Look at Faldo back in his prime, unbelievable with a long iron.

You'll still have long drives comparatively, don't see how social media posts has anything to do with it. Average people that engage with social media posts aren't watching pro golf tournaments on sky every weekend anyway.

Not sure why you think there won't be drivable par 4s or reachable 5s anymore, its 9-11 yards for elite players and courses can move tees forward.

Not going to repeat myself RE: amateur game other than to say its going to cause slower rounds is just idle speculation with nothing to back it up and is being parroted by OEMs so can be sure is just agenda based. As I said above if you think losing 5 yards off a drive is going to cause slower rounds i don't know what to tell you but i'm confident if I went out tomorrow and put a rolled back ball into every second players bags they'd not notice the slightest difference by the end of their round.

I look forward to all the hackers (i include myself in that bracket) moaning about how much distance they've lost when this comes in, same people who whinge about conditions or wind or too many pints last night to excuse their bad round.

I don't agree with this - we have all looked back at the "real" pro tees on these courses and they are very different courses.

And when we play one of the top top course - it is a time they let tourists in - and to make things even more different , they basically have you off the ladies tees at some locations. Add to that, the rough length and the pin positions. I genuinely think it is a different sport and course.

It is somewhat entertaining. But I do think golf has got to be the most delusional sport out there in relation to our perception of our ability , us referencing ourselves to pros and the need to have their equipment and then at lessons looking at what say Rory does versus you -- it's comical. When soccer lads watch the pros play soccer they know they can't do what they are doing on tv.

The ball (and equipment) is going way too far, for the pros in particular - and what they were doing and are doing is far too little. And now the industry has watered it down what they are doing.

I'm beginning to think golf is a selfish sport (well not beginning to be honest) - it is the ultimate solo game - and perhaps in that mindset, we lack an ability to accept the greater good. Even if that change has an impact on you , you need to think outside of you.

I don't think I really care about these changes, can't see them effecting how I enjoy the game. If I'm shorter off tee as a result and hitting longer clubs into greens then my scores will probably be slightly worse. But then everyone else should be as well so in a club competition if you were finishing 3rd for example you'll probably still finish 3rd if the changes are effecting the majority in the same fashion

The pros are averaging 180 - yes averaging. Not looking at a max of your Sunday best

And if for the greater good - as I think it is. I will take a reduction in distance - as it make no odds to me - as I play very short courses - and when I play a championship course , I'm miles forward - and WHS will sort it all out in a matter of weeks anyway.

If I have to hit an Odd 5 iron instead of a 6 - so what (and looking at the maths above ) I think we were overstating the impact on irons for amateurs' distances. And as shown the impact above is not linear - and this is not surprising as most functions to do with energy are squared - be it drag or kinetic.

Bifurcation was the way to go - but the industry are just being selfish - R&A and US body should have just being harder - no entry to an event unless you play the professional conforming ball - and this ball is very different - far more suppressed then what was proposed. We are at a point in the game a par 5 is pointless unless near 700 yards. It is mad stuff.

I’m nearly sure all of that was contained in the 150 page plus distance report they did which formed the basis for this change. This release is aimed at the average player who has no interest or comprehension of what those figures mean. Most club players haven’t a clue what their swing speed is so not much point going into that detail in this release.

We hit the ball similar distances and similar handicap too. I’ve thought about getting speed training gear for a while but I’d be willing to bet that both of us would be much better off investing in a few lessons rather than trying to gain distance seeing as we already hit it further than most amateurs. I think if you are honest with yourself, it’s not the 6 or 7 yards distance that is causing you to lose shots. If you think it is I’d also bet you’d get the ten yards from lessons or properly fit driver without any need for speed training.

I'm sorry but you're delusional if you think you'll notice losing 8 yards or whatever a hole. That's just a pin position, or a tee marker placement. Having 8 yards further into the trees isn't much of an advantage. Or missing the green right by an extra 3 yards.

At the end of the day few of us here hit it perfect everytime. So the loss I believe won't even be noticed. I could hit 5 drives today and I'm sure there could be a fair level of difference between best and worst drive so I believe to really notice change you'd need to be hitting every shot exactly the same right now

all seems a bit pointless to solve what is a small 20 year jump in driving distance, like what difference is 10 yards when you can drive the ball 300

where club and ball tech has stood still, but the tech to measure you has gone from zero to 100

and at least on a pro level they have totally changed, agewize and fitness too

its remarkable the change has remained so small