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Jury service, what do they know about you?

  • 06-12-2023 1:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭


    I was recently called for jury service, my hand was on the bible about to be sworn in & one side decided they didn’t want me so was just wondering what information the prosecution or defence have about you as a potential juror or was it that they just didn’t like the cut of my jib on the day, just interested

    thanks



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,100 ✭✭✭✭GBX


    I wouldn't worry about not being picked. Its both sides prerogative to pick and choose if they don't like a juror for whatever reason. Could be any reason but it is not based on info about you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭bennyx_o


    They know nothing about you, your juror number is called, you go into the court toom and proceed to get sworn in. The a certain number of rejection allowed without reason.

    Someone more clued in on the issue will probably be along soon and can be more exact



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭bullpost


    I'd guess it purely on appearance and their preferred profile for the case being defended e.g. they may not want older, conservative people etc.

    I'd imagine it wouldn't be good for defence team to have access to your personal details if you end up on the jury.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭naughtysmurf


    I’m not worried or offended, each side can reject seven without giving a reason, I’m just interested in knowing what information they have other than I assume my name & address, that’s all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,100 ✭✭✭✭GBX


    Yeah, that's all really.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,341 ✭✭✭jasonb



    Am curious, was your hand literally on a Bible? Is that used for swearing in?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    They know pretty much nothing about you but a huge amount of on-the-spot profiling is done based on your age, gender, clothing, comportment, general demeanour, etc. Jury selection is something of an artform and both sides will try to stack the jury in what they see as their favour, e.g. in sexual assault cases the defence generally want more male than female jurors, etc. It's a dance between the prosecution and the defence based on who they think is going to be most favourable towards their desired outcome.

    Post edited by Dial Hard on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,931 ✭✭✭Allinall


    They know your occupation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,760 ✭✭✭✭degrassinoel


    it's there alright, you can choose to affirm if the bible isnt your thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,313 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Had it yesterday and got left off on health grounds due to an ASD diagnosis cert

    Needs to be something more discret than been forced to go into the court room and swear an oath. I didn't know what I had to say because they flew through all the 'instructions' in the waiting room



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Exactly, they know your occupation and definitely use that as a factor which I know from experience. You'll find that if there is a money laundering case, for example, then the prosecution will probably go for people who work in roles such as IT/Admin/Accountancy because others might get way too bored making it difficult to present the normally tedious detailed evidence. Other than that its age, gender and possibly how you present yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭naughtysmurf


    Yes, just above it a millisecond away from resting on it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭naughtysmurf


    On a side note, a good few were excused for the following, I didn’t notice any requirement for evidence, judge just excused on the spot

    “I have a driving lesson for my driving test”

    I have a hospital appointment

    I have an interview

    My Partner is a Guard

    Dental appointment



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    I got off jury service when I was in college because I couldn't miss a load of time potentially. I didn't have to go near the court though, there were instructions on the original letter I got outlining where to send certs or whatever proof back if I couldn't do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,588 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    How do they know your occupation? It's not asked for when you register to vote. I just checked my entry in the register of electors and there's nothing about my occupation.

    You get a jury summmons, you turn up. How does anyone in the courts service or either of the legal teams in the case you will be hearing know your occupation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,931 ✭✭✭Allinall


    It's asked of you when you are being enpanelled in the court, as far as I can recall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    IIRC you have to reply to the summons and I think they ask you for your occupation on the reply form.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,065 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    Yeah I got called just before my finals , so sent in a letter from the college.

    I'm hearing impaired now so I'd say I'd be exempt now, unless they want a juror who wouldn't have a notion about what's going on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭naughtysmurf


    Just checked there, I had to supply occupation info when replying to summons



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 664 ✭✭✭Sonic the Shaghog


    Most of it is the cut of you.

    If the defendant is Anto who's accused of dealing and anti social behavior they don't want Caroline the middle class accountant coming in, they'd prefer Jacinta the single mother.

    If it's Tarquin from Dublin 4 who's accused of embezzling from his company they want the likes Geoffrey and Benjamin the finance bros not Paddy the farmer or Decco whos unemployed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Spent a week on a jury last year and it only took us half an hour to find the defendant guilty - The judge then gave him a suspended sentence!!

    Waste of everyone’s time , sums up why there is so much crime in this country .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    Your role is jury, not executioner.

    I went some time ago and would recommend the experience to everybody, the food was really nice, and its fascinating sticking 12 random people in a room and seeing how they get along. After that case I made promise to myself that I would never break the law in case I ended up on trial, not gonna lie some of those people selected hadn't a breeze what was going on, to think that somebody's freedom was in the hands of some of those people is frightening. Thankfully the case got thrown out after a few days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    I don't think this is true in Ireland.

    The culture among prosecuting authorities is very much that you take the jury you get. Unless there's a real issue, like one of the jurors has a connection to a witness or to the defendant, the prosecution doesn't often challenge jurors.

    The defence does so a bit more frequently, but they have very limited information about the jurors and most experienced criminal lawyers are very aware of how unreliable stereotypes are. In the real world, Jacinta the single mother is much more likely than Caroline the middle-class accountant to live in a community ravaged by drug-dealing and anti-social behaviour; she is concerned about protecting her own kids; why would you assume that she is tolerant of this? Geoffrey and Benjamin the finance bros can read a set of accounts, won't be so easily blindsided by technical arguments about bookkeeping practices as others might be, and just might actually think that honest is important in the financial professions. There's no real reason to think that challenging jurors based on lazy stereotypes will, in the real world, have the effect that the stereotypes would suggest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 664 ✭✭✭Sonic the Shaghog


    Hate to break it to you bro, friends a solicitor it's common carry on.

    If Jacinta looks rough theres a higher chance she'll see Anto more on her level, the Gardai coming down hard cause he's from a disadvantaged background like herself.

    The finance bros it's thought they see your man as one of their own, where as Paddy the farmer might see a rich fella that needs taking down a peg or two, same to Decco

    There's how's things work and there's how you'd hope things work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    I know a couple of people who got the letter and just didn't bother turning up. There was no follow-up on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bobbyD1978


    Neither side knows you're occupation. Neither side knows anything at all about you. They dont know your name, address, age or occupation.


    The court service know these things but it's confidential.


    Rejection is sometimes based on stereotype but a lot of the time arts ad hoc. If you sit in court you will see the prosecution isn't even looking half the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The prosecution might not be looking but you can be sure the defence is.

    Why on earth would the court service ask for occupation then if they're not going to tell anyone...?

    I thought they were supposed to reject before the swearing stage started i.e. if it looked like you were going to affirm instead of swear they couldn't use that as grounds. At least that's what I recall from the two juries I served on

    No-one should have to declare in court what their religion is or is not, it's easy to imagine certain jurors taking a dim view of non-Christians and if I was a defendant I'd be getting my hand on that bible for sure! The notion is archaic in the extreme.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,718 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Probably something similar to a disgraced ex-president.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,718 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Well to be fair, I am indeed partial to painting myself blue and running around half naked


    Everyone needs a hobby



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,363 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I was on a jury once outside of Dublin and it was at the swearing in stage that the objections were made. Our names were called out during the various roll calls, which made some of my colleagues very uncomfortable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Oh yeah at the swearing in stage but once you started either swearing in or asked to affirm (you have to f'kin ask 🙄 ) it was too late.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,313 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    The judge can be some surly ballax

    There should be a way of trying to talk to the judge privately if you need to be excused. Instead of having to stand in front of everyone, made start swear the oath and try say 'can I speak to you' etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭naughtysmurf


    We were instructed by court staff before entering the courtroom that when your name was called aloud to swear the oath, it was at that point you must tell the judge that you wish to be excused & not after you take the oath, not sure what would happen if you took the oath & then offered your excuse, immediately after taking the oath you are directed to take your seat on the jury



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Not much. They invited me for jury service and it was up to me to tell them I dont qualify cos Im not an Irish citizen.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,478 ✭✭✭apache


    I've been called a few times but I don't qualify because of my job. I thought they would have recorded that after the first time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You might have changed job and 'forgot' to tell them that you are now eligible for service 😁

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,588 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Can someone say for definite what the courts service do with the data (your occupation) that you provide when you reply to the sumnmons?

    I was called for jury service. I showed up and listed to the instructions from the registrar and the judge. They then started to empanel a jury. My name was called, I stepped forward and took the bible in my hand. I don't recall the prosecution or defence looking me up on a list of potential jurors and their occupations to decide if they would reject me. As far I know, they knew nothing about me other than my name.

    As others have said, the decision to reject you seems to be based purely on sight - the look of you. Is that correct or does the prosecution and defence get a list of names, addresses and occupations of the current jury pool?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    They've looked at those details before you walk into the room. I've seen it in a number of sources (such as https://www.thejournal.ie/jury-service-in-ireland-1385791-Mar2014/) that both sides have your name and occupation but I can't find any official source. My experience is they probably do have occupation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭cml387


    Many years ago I was called for jury service. In the selection process one chap had a three piece suit and an attache case. When he was called there was an immediate challenge from the defence. I can't help thinking he was dressed like that deliberately.

    If you really want to serve on a jury, dress anonymously is my advice.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,771 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If I'm called again, I'm going in full-on biker gear and the most obnoxious band t-shirt I can rustle up

    I've served on two juries, I've done my bit.

    I can see why people might want to see what happens the first time out of curiosity, but in reality sitting around for all or most of a week is a bore, and doing it a second time is just a pain.

    First time around was a rape trial - it's common today to give long exemptions from jury service for these but we got nothing.

    Second time around was an assault case - nobody on the jury could figure out how on earth the DPP thought there was enough evidence to prosecute, it was a waste of everyone's time. There was a very young looking prosecuting counsel, it seemed like a training run for her...

    That was a lucky escape though, we had video link in the jury room as Mark Nash was being arraigned, I mean everyone recognised him and knew he was already convicted of murders and didn't want to be assigned to that trial for sure... some people in the same batch as me had to serve on his trial.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,548 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Occupation is important as some people are mandatorily excluded, e.g. they are a garda, while some have the option of self exclusion, e.g. a surgeon.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,576 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Regarding how often there's an objection to a potential juror, my one experience was of being number 19 on a panel of 20 (for a sexual assault case) and the jury being completed by the time they got to panellist number 18 - in short, one in three people were objected to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,548 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Objected to or self-excluded (maybe they knew someone)?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,576 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    objected to by defence or prosecution; there were (very rough guess) 80 people called for jury duty, 5 cases in front of the court, two or three of which went to trial so jury formation happened at the time.

    those of us not picked were told to go home; no need to return the following day. it was the central criminal court, so they don't have a huge volume of cases they needed juries for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭cml387


    BTW if there is a problem with you serving AFTER you take the oath, the whole process of selection may have start again. This happened in my experience when a selected sworn. in juror announced that he was unable to read or write



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