Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

How dare we hold Israel up to higher standards than some poor 3rd world country having a civil war with dumb bombs and dumb munitions.

Israel, with modern tech, capable of reducing civilian casualties to a minimum, yet their own PM admits they are not doing that. 0.5% of the population dead in less than 2 months. (for those on the 9/11 scale, it's the same as 1.6mil Americans)

American officials also surprised that 90% of the bombs dropped the first week were 2000lb bombs, as although they are accurate, they cannot be used to limit civilian casualties.

I can't recall any war in recent memory that civilian, especially children have born most of the casualties.

Was only a few weeks ago, people in defense if Israel were questioning the numbers, thank **** they are accepted now

Nobody is saying Israel should do nothing, but Israel is not under imminent threat. Hamas are not going to be charging into Israel on mopeds anytime soon. This is not self defense by Israel, they are well past that now.

Israel had some catching up to do, to keep those numbers up.

'We had no choice but to kill 20,000 civilians' is no sort of a defence to accusations of war crimes or massive breaches of international law. Many human rights lawyers have said Israel has carried out multiple violations of international law in the last eight weeks, as well as academics who have devoted their entire career to the study of war crimes.

can't recall any war in recent memory that civilian, especially children have born most of the casualties.

Really? You should do some research, World War 2 for example, approx 70-85 million people died, approx 55 million were civilians.

Bosnian war had approx 100,000 killed, 40,000 were civilians

Kosovo war, approx 13500 killed ( or still missing) , over 10,000 were civilians. Also 90% of kosovans were displaced during the war. NATO actually killed a few thousand civilians on both sides of this war with bombs they dropped, including Kosovo refugees.

There are plenty more wars you can check.

That the tunnels exist is beyond question, that's for sure, and neither is the fact that Israel build the original tunnel(s) but there's different opinions about the actual sizes and locations. Some mention the figure in hundreds of Kilometers big as the London underground even. Like I've repeatedly said, we will have to wait and see, but there's one thing for sure, whatever Israel built, Hamas extended them.'

Yeah sorry I wasn't alive during WW2. The joy of being young?

More killed in Gaza (17k) than Kosovo (10K), with 81% displaced in Gaza in about 2 months. We still have like 9 months to catch up to that 90%.

To match the 40% civilian death toll in Bosnia and based on 17k civilian deaths in Gaza, you would need 25k dead Hamas.... do you really believe that?

You quote civilian deaths, my original point was the ratio of Children killed. In Gaza that's around 40%. I can't recall any war where 40% of deaths were children. I'm talking as a direct result of bombing etc... not over the years via disease and starvation (Gaza has a lot more death to deal with unfortunately)

I see that the US has cast its veto in the Security Council calling for an immediate ceasefire.

What I wonder (if anything) might US have got in return for covering Israel's back?

Just a verbal commitment from Israel along certain lines that have not been made public?

What I wonder would be the consequences for Israel if US abandoned Israel in the UN?

Would she have to live with a Hamas that would probably speak for the Palestinians as a whole?

How do you think it ends? How do wars end?

No but when the civilian deaths are disproportionate on the side of women and children and not 'men of fighting age' it lends credence to deliberate targeting of civilian populations. If you drop a random bomb in Gaza, it would be hard to get the ratio's the IDF are getting, unless those bombs land on hospitals and refugee camps etc... places that mainly women and children would shelter in.

This is not a war.... it's a slaughter of innocent Palestinians.

Do you really think Israel is under imminent threat from Gaza and do you believe Israel are acting in self defense and limiting civilian casualties?

This one? Quite possibly with Gaza being inhabitable and the West Bank fitting onto a postage stamp.

Kinda like this:

John Hume, (RIP) a man who millions in Ireland should be thankful for is someone who would no doubt have had very strong views and opinions on what is happening and has been in happening in the middle east.

He was one of the architects and instigators of the peace talks that brought about the Good Friday Agreement and in acknowledgement of his work he shared the Nobel Peace Prize with his Unionist counterpart, David Trimble. He also won the Gandhi Peace award and the Martin Luther King award and consequently was the only person ever to win all three.

Aside from all his work during the process that led to the Good Friday agreement, some of his words during his Nobel acceptance speech when he said that 'Difference is an accident of birth' caught my ear. He went on to say that difference should be celebrated rather than feared, but it was these first 6 words that struck me and that I've often thought about.

The message in the phrase 'Difference is an accident of birth' is that often it is no more than because of where we are born or who we are born to that dictates who it is that we become. In Northern Ireland during the troubles, a baby was born in to either a Protestant or Catholic background and so the die was often cast for what their views would be, and how they would be viewed, for the rest of their lives.

Without saying this directly throughout the 80's and 90's John ultimately convinced people to see that there was nothing inherently wrong with people or to be feared about them but rather because of the circumstances of their birth they were being seen as being of a particular lesser worth or of a greater evil value. He was able to help people look beyond these forced circumstances to the individuals that were beyond them and to consider the type of world that was possible for all such people.

It goes without saying that an acceptance of this in the Middle East would be best for everyone involved, Jew, Arab, Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, and whatever else, but alas there is close to zero room for this sentiment in the area right now. But the point I did want to make about Hume's words was in relation to the current Israeli PM.

I have no doubt that if people like Nethanyahu or others in his party and military had been born and lived in Nazi era Germany in a non-Jewish community then they would have supported the practices of Hitler and his party. It is one of the greatest curses of religion, the amount of death and suffering that has been executed in its name on a foundation that has little more to do with anything other than the accident of birth that found people on all sides living their lives with the hands they were dealt rather than being free to plot their own destiny. The same goes for other religious fanatics, but watching Nethanyahu scream about antisemitism in the UN for having the audacity to investigate war crimes by Israel and watching how he has behaved and spoken about Palestinians really made me think of him in this context.

(As a side note, imagine if someone Like John Hume had had the ear of US Governments and Presidents for decades rather than the man who did so in Henry Kissinger, I think its fair to say we'd be living in a much more peaceful world)

Do you think it is ok to bomb children if it results in the deaths of Hamas fighters and commanders?

Why does the responsibility for a ceasefire seem to fall entirely on Israel? Why isnt anyone calling for hamas to stop firing rockets, to stop the genocide rhetoric? People have short memories if they can't remember that barely a week ago, it was hamas who broke the ceasefire, it was hamas who didn't honor the terms of the hostage release, not to mention, it was Hamas who started this whole fight in the first place and they openly say they will do it again over and over. If there is to be peace, they need to stop also

Because Hamas are Angels. Its only self defence when they do it.

Do you think calling for a ceasefire only applies to Israel ?

Hamas will not accept a ceasefire, so people don't bother asking them, it would be like asking them to tolerate the existence of Jews, gay people or independent women.

It's so opposed to their belief system that to even ask would drive a wall of anger and violence from them.

The amount of Islamophobes who have co-opted this war as an avenue for their lust for Muslims to slaughtered is kind of amazing. It's so blatant as well talking about their beliefs and about how they're inferior because of IQ etc. And the sheer audacity of them to cry about antisemitism while they're masturbating to these videos of dead Muslim children.

But Israel are supposed to just roll over and bow before the glory of Hamas.

Israeli PM, Nethanyahu, Oct 14th (Link)

GOP Representative, Brian Mast, Nov 01st (Link)

American Conservative Political Commentator, Mark Levin, Dec 8th (Link)

There Are No ‘Innocent Palestinians’

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck....... It's a duck.

Like don't get me wrong, its not exactly the same playbook, but the wish to remove a group of people entirely is the same, the rhetoric around their enemy is the same and actually converting thoughts and words in to actions are the same.

Both sides broke the ceasefire at different times . You are right Hamas is ultimately responsible for this war breaking out. Hamas if they are on the brink of military defeat may look for a way out, but as Bibi has said numerous times he is intent on inflicting a total defeat on Hamas, so he is unlikely to agree to a ceasefire even if Hamas were to offer one. It's in his interest to keep this war going, to stay in power and try and ward off the corruption charges. He and Sinwar have one thing in common ;they are both Psychopaths

The sooner he and Hamas are gone the better it may be for everyone. That's the only positive outcome that may arise from this complete clusterfuck

It might also be a member of the goose family that was called a Muscovy Duck, for the purpose of selling it.

Lol.

That did make me laugh.

And this is one of your shortest posts.