Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

But you have argued earlier we should stick to tradition over centuries now you are trying to pretend all that centuries old tradition is irrelevant. Your arguments don't add up actually.

You have an idealised view of marriage creating equality when this has very often been very far from reality and it is only recent decades that we have moved towards equality within marriage.

As for two parent families being best for kids, plenty of examples where that definitely isn't the case for the kids, or despite being raised as part of a two parent family they still manage to be a complete cúnt.

Iona isn't a women's group. It's a Russian funded Catholic group.

I'm very aware of who Iona are

Yes, and I don’t see the proposed amendments making any meaningful changes in Irish society. They could have made meaningful changes if they had gone with the proposals of the Citizens Assembly to recognise and support carers within the home and within the wider community. It’s difficult to reconcile their view of the status of women in Irish society with the reality of women’s status in Irish society is all.

Oh look over here a distraction from real problems . Government are slippery dudes I'll give them that.

It’s not nature that’s the driving force behind that phenomenon, it’s socialisation, and it’s also the reason why you haven’t answered the question as to whether or not you view fathers who work full-time as part-time fathers. The reason for it is that women are expected to be primary caregivers, whereas men are expected to be primary breadwinners. The guilt comes from not adhering to the roles which are expected of them - more men would feel guilty if they were expected to be the primary caregiver and instead they were engaged in labour outside of the home - it’s internalised stereotypes rather than something which is explained by nature.

It’s why for example there aren’t still yet sufficient supports for women who choose to work outside the home, and in job interviews being asked about their domestic arrangements is not an uncommon practice, whereas those same questions are not asked of men, because it’s not expected of men. This results in two interesting outcomes that aren’t explained by nature either, but rather are explained and fuelled by social expectations of parenthood:

The motherhood penalty -

And the fatherhood bonus -

I agree with you that Government has seriously watered down the proposals coming from the Citizens Assembly and Oireachtas Committee but I really can't agree with you at all that the Status of women hasn't changed at all in Ireland in 100 years.

But the tradition of marriage originally was all about money, land and property and wasn't necessarily at all about people.

There is an idealised and romanticised view amongst some in this thread that marriage has always been about love, happiness and raising children together equally. This isn't the case at all.

It's funny in this thread how there are calls to tradition and calls to centuries old tradition but when it's pointed out that marriage within centuries old tradition was often about capitalism, control, patriarchy, abuse and oppression then there's attempts to gloss over all of that to bring back all the idealised and romanticised views of marriage.

This would appear to be the case judging by some posters here - who imply that marriage is/ was only ever a dastardly tool to control women.

When in fact marriage was and is about creating a stable and legal framework for that shared sense of responsibility, love and endurance needed to sustain a family over many years. To the benefit of all within.

The narrative that all women were subservient to men in marriage and that it was never about a common collective endeavour between a man and a woman that it was solely based on a patriarchal foot on the neck of women is just not true. There are plenty of strong matriarchal women throughout our history, the vast majority of irish history had irish women and men struggling collectively in the family unit which was founded on marraige to survive poverty disease and displacement, the fact that many had large irish families traditionally would suggest an element of love and respect unless you believe the value placed on a large family was a result of irish men raping their wives repeatedly.

It's not a romanticised notion of marriage of course their were evil men at that time who did evil things and of course life was much harsher historically, but given how far we have come in a century it would seem that marraige today would be exactly what the state should actively promote as the foundation of society, at no time in history has marraige been a more equal institution in terms of equality for men and women?

It’s easy enough to determine whether or not it’s true - whether or not the provision remains in the Constitution or doesn’t, the attitude towards the status of women and what is expected of women, will remain, and will persist without meaningful legislation to address the issues faced by women - they will continue to be viewed as being more suited to the domestic sphere, to carry out unpaid work -

In January 2020, Oxfam found that women in Ireland did 38m hours of unpaid care work every single week, domestic chores and care work that enabled others to go out into paid employment.

If women received a living wage for this invisible work and indirect contribution, it would cost the State €24bn a year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40333370.html

Imagine if the State, instead of just a token nod in the Constitution to suggest that women who work in the home would be supported, if the State actually had to pay women for their labour. Not only would it have raised the status of women, but it would have meant that care work would have had much greater value.

Instead, because care work is framed as a duty, as opposed to an occupation which receives compensation in the form of payment, it’s still perceived as women’s responsibility, for which women are paid poorly. The lack of action by Government means women suffer in two ways - they’re impeded in employment because of being unable to afford childcare, and childcare itself is still one of the lowest paid sectors with many women in part-time employment even though they are highly educated -

https://archive.ph/ziiFl

https://archive.ph/JyNaL

I’m not a feminist or anything, these are just simple observations, one doesn’t need an education in the social sciences or economics to understand that women’s status has not been raised in the last 100 years since they were impeded in employment, not as a consequence of the marriage bar, but as a consequence of the attitudes which prevailed in how women in Irish society were regarded then, and are still to this day regarded the same way.

That’s why I don’t get the whole argument to remove the provision based upon the idea that it’s outdated, when the attitude which fuels it is still very much in date - still a thing, still used to argue that the reason for women’s status being unchanged isn’t because of social policies, but because of themselves and the choices they make for themselves, or it’s nature, which frankly is just BS to explain away why the State isn’t arsed to do anything which might actually have a meaningful and positive impact on the status of women in Irish society.

We’re not even being offered a choice as to whether or not the State should be obligated to support care in the community, and no explanation has been forthcoming as to why Government chose not to put that option on the table. I can think of a few reasons, primarily however it just comes down to economics - the State couldn’t afford to provide support, not even reasonable support, and would rather relieve themselves of that obligation at the first opportunity. Apparently it’s women’s own fault if they haven’t managed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps - they’re where they choose to be 😒

The problem was that divorce wasn't an option until 1995 and very nearly didn't pass that time. If a woman had a good marriage and a supportive husband, great, but otherwise she was on her own.

Then society had its very strict conservative norms. If a 16 year old daughter had a baby, their parents marriage often didn't offer much protection either. That stigma took a long time to go.

Agreed divorce allowed those women in marraiges that would have been life sentences of manipulation and abuse a chance to escape.