The new recycling system

AndrewJRenko · 12-12-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121486057#Comment_121486057

There are situations where recycling waste could have been contaminated through no fault of the householder. If your bin gets tossed into the truck with your neighbour's bin that was full of soiled nappies, the whole lot is going to the incinerator, though you've done nothing wrong.

But there is a valid question about how much of the content of recycling bins is actually recycled, for sure.

12-12-2023 5:00pm

I’d certainly not be picking up some careless person’s can that has been to a stranger’s mouth and bring it for recycling. If I were to do a voluntary group beach clean-up, eg, that would be different, I’d be gutted out with gloves, pickers, etc, and would clean myself up thoroughly after the process.

Jim_Hodge · 12-12-2023 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121487216#Comment_121487216

Not for the deposit return anyway. Those I pick up on a weekly litter pick locally are usually crushed and filthy dirty.

Sconsey · 12-12-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121487290#Comment_121487290

69% of plastic that was collected in 2019 (I think that was the year of the EPA report I saw) was incinerated in Ireland, the rest of the plastic was shipped offshore for potential recycling. Not seen any figures for paper/cardboard but I assume some percentage is also burned.

FazyLucker · 12-12-2023 5:44pm

Isn't the facility in Ringsend waste-to-energy? Or am I mis-understanding?

And that if I say for example throw an filthy dirty ready meal packet for example in my recycle bin (which I don't by the way!), it'll end up there. But a properly clean packet will PROBABLY get recycled?

But also.........there are scrubbers for example on those incinerators to remove many of the dangerous toxins from the process, and the burning process is used to create energy.

Am I missing something?

It seems insanely high that we'd be burning 69% of our rubbish. Do we have a 2023 figure? Surely it is much lower now?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121487500#Comment_121487500

I'd be interested to hear how much (if at all) the amount of cans reduces next Summer say. I bet it will be higher than people think but I guess time will tell. I can imagine the thousands of cans drank by the canal every summer being either recycled by the owner or by a homeless person who will inevitably be walking around looking for these things. I think the Germans call them "Pfandsuchers" or something.

Keep us posted Jim - and good on you for doing a weekly litter pick. In an ideal world, you'd not have to do it.

creedp · 12-12-2023 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121487216#Comment_121487216

Another question is whether a person prepared to toss a bottle /can on the ground will be altruistic enough to do so in a manner ensuring it will be in pristine condition for the RVM

Hotblack Desiato · 12-12-2023 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484180#Comment_121484180

There is absolutely no way that aluminium cans are going to be reused, and I don't see it happening for PET bottles either (apparently some countries use refillable plastic bottles but these are much sturdier)

It's just so the symbol and barcode can be read, and it's a right pain

RobbieV · 12-12-2023 8:24pm

If people don't return their bottles ( see the posters Netherlands example) who keeps the deposit?

Which little piggy is profiting and is hoping people don't bring them back?

Gregor Samsa · 12-12-2023 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121488072#Comment_121488072

No, it's clear that the machines crush the containers they receive, and they are not reused.

Here's the specification document for the Reverse Vending Machines: https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/DRSI_CLG_RVM_Specification_V1.0.pdf

Here's the minimum volume reduction requirements they must adhere to:

3.13 Volume Reduction & Flattening

Compactors must reduce the volume of a PET Beverage container by at least 55% and the volume of an Aluminium/Steel Container by at least 75%. RVMs must maintain this level over the duration of its life. The compactor should destroy the barcode and all compacted containers should be rejected when attempted to be returned again.

Gregor Samsa · 12-12-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121488241#Comment_121488241

DRSI CLG, trading as "Re-turn", (the "approved body" appointed by the Minister to run the scheme) keeps non-redeemed deposits.

The legislation [Separate Collection (Deposit Return Scheme) Regulations 2021: https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/si/599/made/en/print] mentions that unredeemed deposits constitute part of the income stream of the scheme:

(3) (a) The costs of operating a scheme shall be recouped from –

(i) registration fees set by an approved body,

(ii) producer fees set by an approved body on the basis of quantity and material type placed on the market,

(iii) unredeemed deposits as provided for in these Regulations,

(iv) revenue derived from the sale of returned in-scope bottles and containers,

(v) any other income source created by an approved body.

The way it works is:

The Producer has to pay the deposit directly to Re-turn before the product goes on the market
The Producer passes the cost of the deposit onto the Retailer
The Retailer passes the cost of the deposit onto the Consumer
The Consumer redeems the deposit from the Retailer on returning the empty container
The Retailer is reimbursed for the deposit from Re-turn.
Re-Turn keeps any unredeemed deposits

Separately, the Retailer is paid a "handling fee" by Re-turn for every eligible container they take in, which is €0.026 per container if they do manual collection, and €0.022 per container if it's done via a Reverse Vending Machine.

rockdrummer4 · 13-12-2023 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121486106#Comment_121486106

Did you just make that up lol?

Can you show this happens?

Furze99 · 13-12-2023 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489799#Comment_121489799

Well what do you think happens with your rubbish? Landfill is pretty much gone. A lot of it is off to https://www.dublinwastetoenergy.ie/

And what happens to it there?

As a virtuous Green householder you can of course, keep your cardboard etc and use it to help start your fire etc. That's saving you in the pocket and the carbon cost of transport to Poolbeg.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-12-2023 12:00pm

A green householder with an open fire, the least efficient and by far the most polluting way to heat your home? Yeah sure

13-12-2023 4:39pm

Items can't be crushed because the machine uses 4 methods to verify what they are - barcode, weight, shape recognition, metallic properties.

It checks the barcode first and then looks up a database to see what the other 3 should be. If there's any disagreement it rejects the can/bottle. So if the barcode is torn it fails the first step. If it's crushed it fails the shape recognition. If there's a few drops left in a bottle it fails the weight test.

If you visit the machine at a busy time the queue will be slow due to rejected items, people putting them back in to try again, old dears not knowing how to work it, etc. Then if you want cash and not a poxy voucher you'll have to get in another queue behind old people. The amount of time it's going to suck out of your day is unreal, then multiply that by the number of households in the country.

It's a nonsense scheme along the lines of electronic voting machines, clocks in the liffey etc. Whoever sells the fancy machines behind these scams makes off with a bag of money and the rest of us end up worse off. I guarantee there's some ministers relative in there somewhere.

ednwireland · 13-12-2023 6:38pm

interestingly this from amazon.de so it can be done.

You may return emptied disposable and reusable containers to the driver delivering your Amazon Fresh order. The driver will total the number of containers per deposit fee on-site and you’ll receive an e-mail with all the details of your deposit return.

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=202109710

StrawbsM · 13-12-2023 10:06pm

The quality of some of the water bottles is dire. Take the multipacks from Lidl as an example - the bottle collapses when you’re opening it. What happens in those situations?

I wish they were installing these machines alongside existing glass, cans, and recycling centres (or moving those to the plastic and can machines). Aren’t we all meant to be reducing our carbon footprint?

kippy · 13-12-2023 10:23pm

Someone mentioned a company name 'Re-turn'.

What does the commercial side of this look like, who are they, did they win a tender? What do their SLAs look like?

I assume this information is available somewhere.

Gregor Samsa · 13-12-2023 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492625#Comment_121492625

“Re-turn” is the trading name for the company DRSI CLG that were appointed by the Minister to run the scheme. Some details here:

https://www.shelflife.ie/drsi-clg-trading-as-re-turn-appointed-scheme-administrator-for-drs/

The CEO is Ciaran Foley, who was formerly the Managing Director of DHL Ireland and Supply Chain Director for Tesco Ireland: https://www.checkout.ie/packaging-design/re-turn-appoints-ciaran-foley-as-chief-executive-officer-207206

“Appointed” makes it sound like the Minister just gave it to some existing company, but that’s not the case. The legislation governing the scheme (https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/si/599/made/en/print) legally requires the “Producers” (those who make the products that use the containers to be recycled) to propose and set up (with the Minister’s approval) the body that will run the scheme. Thats how DRSI CLG came into being. They didn’t already exist, and their purpose is solely and specifically to run the scheme. In the past, a State or Semi-State body would do such things. Now, the State removes itself from the day-to-day running of such things, and an independent entity used instead.

A CLG (Company Limited by Guarantee) is a commercial entity that is set up for a specific purpose (in this case to run the deposit return scheme), not for profit, and has no shareholders. https://www.companyformations.ie/company-formations/irish-company-limited-by-guarantee-clg/

So there was no tender: the industry was mandated to set up the company as per the legislation. The company is funded by the scheme itself, and there’s obviously employees (30, according to the checkout.ie article above), but there’s no shareholders, so profits (if there are any) will not be distributed as dividends, but re-invested back into the scheme.

rockdrummer4 · 14-12-2023 9:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489924#Comment_121489924

Can you show me on the Panda website that it is incinerated there?

I do not know what happens to it there, you tell me as you seem to know?

Haha open fire, yes you are a virtuous green householder lol

The contradictions are just hilarious... keep em coming

rockdrummer4 · 14-12-2023 9:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121487290#Comment_121487290

I would day F all, contamination alone would render most of it unrecyclable

rockdrummer4 · 14-12-2023 9:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121486160#Comment_121486160

I was referring to the whole recycling lark, for example why pay Panda to recycle when they dont. How can they be called recycling when they most likely burn most of it, or ship it of somewhere (who know what happens to it then)?

Would be interesting to find out the stats on this.

In relation to this scheme, I can assure you companies (including the retailers) will not be loosing out.. Im sure they will be making this work for them as well.

Boggles · 14-12-2023 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492560#Comment_121492560

The quality of some of the water bottles is dire. Take the multipacks from Lidl as an example - the bottle collapses when you’re opening it. What happens in those situations?

Once the machine rejects them drive to a smaller shop and get them manually processed.

Because this is cost neutral and convenient for everyone.

rockdrummer4 · 14-12-2023 9:34am

Panda say they do alot:

https://www.panda.ie/panda-home/sustainability/

But no figures to back this up, Im sure they do all of this, but how much of the waste is actually recycled.

The words re-use, recycle & repurpose can have a lot of meanings, can an item be repurposed as landfill lol

Red Silurian · 14-12-2023 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493411#Comment_121493411

Machine rejects it walk to the checkout or similar and hand them in, no need to bring to another shop

Gregor Samsa · 14-12-2023 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493631#Comment_121493631

If the shop in question has signed up for a RVM, they won't be able to accept manual returns. It's an either-or option that the retailer choses on registration with Re-turn, and each option has different procedural and infrastructure requirements, not to mention different costs and revenue models.

• When registering with Re-turn, all retail outlets offering a takeback service will be asked to choose between operating an automatic service, via Reverse Vending Machine(RVM), or a manual service via plastic bags.

https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Manual-Collections.pdf