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Random Fitness Questions

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    I think you should ignore all the advice we've given you and do exactly what the experts in these videos say. Remember to focus on minutia and avoid the basics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    That's a little uncalled for. I'm just making a few changes to my ab workout at the moment, hence the enthusiasm. I've been doing pretty much the same ab routine for the last 13 years. I'm not ignoring the advice, and more so just asking for advice.

    Do you consider these guys to be experts or not? I notice you didn't use inverted commas around the word 'experts' so perhaps you didn't mean it sarcastically. If you think they are charlatans then come on out and say it. I don't believe everything I hear if that's what you're implying, and that's why I'm asking questions. Have you watched the videos?

    I'm presume you know Jeff Cavaliere is as he's quite well known. His belly is very flat (in its relaxed state) and that's the aesthetic I desire... you don't desire that look very much and that's fine. But those exercises obviously work for him, so is he wrong in saying that they would also work for others? And there is nothing wrong with taking a bit more interest in one muscle group than another.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    It's a little cynical to imply that all youtubers just want clicks. If you started a youtube channel they could easily say the same about you. I don't know if you've watched those videos or not, but if you have, and if false information has been presented, then please tell me where.

    Whether the lower ab is a muscle or an area of single muscle is beside the point. The point is that the abs can be worked in a way that targets one part of it more than the other.

    It's quite simple; you typed "Which is what the movement in that exercise." as a single sentence. It is not a sentence, and it threw me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    If you think they are charlatans then come on out and say it.

    They're charlatans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    But you're not willing to point out exactly where they're lying / stretching the truth / misleading people?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Okay, sure.

    Video 1: Leg raises do work. It's not really up for debate. He's trying to make himself sound like an authority by being a contrarian.

    Video 2: Athlean X is a grifter. He, like the above guy, likes to demonise certain exercises (with no evidence to support his position) and then tell you other ones are magic or 'functional'.If you follow his channel for long enough you'll notice he actually directly contradicts himself when he starts running out of content. Him being ripped does not mean that his information is accurate or in your best interest.

    The easiest way to sell someone something is to create a problem that doesn't exist, and then sell them the solution. How well your ab training is targeting your transverse abdominus is not an actual problem for anyone but advanced trainees. The vast majority of people get abs by doing a full body strength programme with a sprinkling of ab work. Oh and do that consistently for months/years with good sleep/nutrition. Doesn't make for a great YouTube thumbnail.

    We've tried to tell you this in the interest of helping you, but you've instead ignored us and just continued to ask the same question until you get the answer you want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I’m not implying all YouTubers are click merchants. There are many informative channels. I was stating that the channels you are posting are clickbaity nonsense. Which suggests your being hooked by their nonsense.

    If you started a youtube channel they could easily say the same about you.

    If I started a channel it would likely be true also. The primary purpose of a monetised channel is views.

    Whether the lower ab is a muscle or an area of single muscle is beside the point. The point is that the abs can be worked in a way that targets one part of it more than the other.

    Far from besides the point. my point was literally that you can’t bias one end of a single muscle over the other.

    It's quite simple; you typed "Which is what the movement in that exercise." as a single sentence. It is not a sentence, and it threw me.

    It’s perfectly acceptable to have a full stop or a comma (I did miss “does” at the end). Once again, focusing on irrelevant detail and not the wider picture.

    If you think they are charlatans then come on out and say it.

    For the avoidance of doubt, Jeff Cavaliere is a con artist. It's one thing to have hyperbolic posts to attract views, but Jeff goes beyond that towards actively lying about - his advice, the training he does, his performance etc. He is in very good shape, that is the product of being a bit strong, and very lean. His defined abs are due to low body fat, not exercise selection. He is also unquestionably on performance enhancing drugs. If you really what to replicate his training, that will be the biggest gap.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Low body fat is probably the number one factor for visible abs, more than anything else.

    I have known heroin users, who never set foot in a gym, with "great abs" i.e visible and defined abs (Not a recommended approach..).

    I also think there's a genetic component, some individuals, and maybe even communities, also seem predisposed more than others to achieving them more easily.

    A flat stomach is, to me, easier to achieve than visible, defined abs. The later often seem to require that extra significant push into single digit body fat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    Thanks,

    So the Dr Gains guy (who's abs certainly don't look as good as Jeff's) is saying that the abs merely function as core stabilisers during leg raises, which is completely untrue? He seems to imply that the hip flexors do 90% of the work. Am I right in saying that this pelvic tilt (at the end of the motion) does NOT target the lower part of the rectus abdominis (when hanging), any more than doing leg raises with the legs only getting up to 90 degrees?

    But surely there is some sort of difference between doing leg raises while bringing your legs up just 90 degrees, and doing them in such a way that you're bringing your feet go so far up that they'd be over your head? The pelvic tilt must surely make some bit of difference to something? These charlatans aren't just copying each other... they must have picked up this idea from somewhere. In fact from the videos of Jeff's that I've seen, the viewer is given many options. Where as the other guy seems to say that you have to do it my way... he therefore disagrees with Athlean-X ab recommendations.

    Charlatans as they may be, I don't really see how a casual exerciser could come of any harm from trying their exercises. After all it would be keeping a person active, rather than not, which is what counts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    The Dr gains guy seems like more of a charlatan to me. He's saying that you have to do this very very specific exercise in order to target your abs properly. You've seen what he said from 6:20 in that video? about studies having shown that different factors affect the region of muscle grown within a muscle.

    So Jeff's lying about the training he does as well as taking performance enhancers. He exercise routine might actually be quite simple, instead doing all these specific isolation exercises??

    His defined abs may be to lower body fat more so than exercise selection. However, it's the fact that his lower abs are not only defined, but very far in! And don't tell me he's sucking his stomach in the whole time during those 5 minute presentations he gives.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Why don't you just go off and try these various approaches out for yourself: Take before and after pictures, measure your waist, and see what happens. Report back in 6 months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    So the Dr Gains guy (who's abs certainly don't look as good as Jeff's)... His defined abs may be to lower body fat more so than exercise selection. However, it's the fact that his lower abs are not only defined, but very far in!

    You are going to get really easily fed bullshit and end up spinning your wheels if this is how you assess who's an authority online.

    Am I right in saying that this pelvic tilt (at the end of the motion) does NOT target the lower part of the rectus abdominis (when hanging), any more than doing leg raises with the legs only getting up to 90 degrees?

    I teach clients to tuck their pelvis on hanging leg and knee raises because yes, it does increase the work on the abs. That's not the same thing as saying leg raises don't work.

    Charlatans as they may be, I don't really see how a casual exerciser could come of any harm from trying their exercises. After all it would be keeping a person active, rather than not, which is what counts.

    You're moving the goal posts from 'is this useful advice' to 'will it directly stop someone from exercising' ? This is a sign you don't want your mind changed so I'm not going to try.

    I get that you're confused, but at a certain point you need to just pick a source of information and run with it long enough to make your own mind up. It sounds like you inherently want to believe the likes of Athlean, so maybe you need to dive balls in and stop asking for a certainty you simply won't get in fitness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    @Cill94 I teach clients to tuck their pelvis on hanging leg and knee raises because yes, it does increase the work on the abs. That's not the same thing as saying leg raises don't work.

    But what he said is true about PPT during leg raises, not only targeting the abs more than the hip flexors, but specifically the the lower section of the abs more than the upper???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That study doesn't show that lower abs grow more. It was studying innervation l signals not growth. And its quite vague in terms methodology, results, etc.

    There a much more detailed study from McGill. That shows when you control for muscle length, rom. There not a significance difference.

    And most importantly none of that has any effect oc burning belly fat.

    So Jeff's lying about the training he does as well as taking performance enhancers.

    Yes. The first point is well documented. He was exposed for using fake weights in his videos.

    The second point common sense.

    He exercise routine might actually be quite simple, instead doing all these specific isolation exercises??

    No idea what you are asking here.

    His defined abs may be to lower body fat more so than exercise selection. However, it's the fact that his lower abs are not only defined, but very far in! And don't tell me he's sucking his stomachs in the whole time during those 5 minute presentations he gives

    I pretty clearly only said definition was due to his bf% . The hollow look is separate, but has nothing to do with his rectus abdominus, or activating the lower section.

    The core being compressed is the transverse abdominis - as I told you a month ago. And as I also said, It can be trained, but not with that leg raise exercise you posted. Look at bodybuilders posing on stage



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    Look, you probably know what I'm going to ask you next... how does he get the 'hollow' look? It is from doing the vacuum? and is doing the vacuum the only way to target the transverse abdominis in isolation? Are you saying that the more you suck in your stomach the more likely it is to end up closer to being in that position in its relaxed sate?

    @Mellor I pretty clearly only said definition was due to his bf% .

    I know you pretty clearly said definition was due to bf... I was just asking a different question.

    @Mellor There a much more detailed study from McGill. That shows when you control for muscle length, rom. There not a significance difference.

    You did it again; that first full stop (after McGill) should not be there! You also mean to say "there's" and not "there"!

    It is not perfectly acceptable to have either a comma or a full stop... you might get away with having a comma in place of a full stop, but not a full stop in place of a comma.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Look, you probably know what I'm going to ask you next... how does he get the 'hollow' look?

    You’ve ignored every piece of advice you been given. Do you honestly expect people to keep wasting their time trying to help you?

    You did it again; that first full stop (after McGill) should not be there!

    LMFAO I don’t know what’s worse, the fact you are attempting this pedantry, or the fact you are not even correct.

    A full stop is perfectly fine there. They are two separate sentences. In that context “that” is a pronoun not a conjunction - It’s a substitute for the study. Which requires a comma, not that.

    Regardless, I don’t for a second believe that the full stop meant you didn’t understand the sentences. But much more important to focus on minute grammar than actually training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,670 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Sealioning is the new training.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    That was what I was thinking of!

    It reminds me a little bit of the arguments that used to come up with Mark Moto a while back, some of those were great. I think about nutrition and supplements?



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes


    Pronoun or not you can't just say "That study shows when you control for muscle length, range of motion". That's incomplete. Just to give an example; if the sentence were "That study shows when you control for muscle length, that the range of motion increases" then that's complete. But you leave the reader confused as to whether it is a pronoun or not.

    I think this is what you meant to say:

    That [study] shows when you control for muscle length, rom, there's not a significance difference.

    Or better yet

    There's a much more detailed study from McGill that shows when you control for muscle length and rom, that there's not a significance difference.

    Stop putting full stops where they don't need to be.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I said above left the ‘s off accidentally. I reply on my phone, it’s not ideal. But you getting distracted as usual. You under the point, why are you getting sidetracked by a typos?

    It’s not going to help up improve your abs workout that you’re obsessing over. But feel free to continue to be sidetracked by minutia, youtube, and grammar. The rest of us will at the gym.



  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Rosalinda Eyes




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    [mod note]


    STOP THE GRAMMAR NAZI nonsense now please.


    the rest of you also give over. This is not constructive. Please move please. Any questions PM me

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭Quiet Achiever


    I'm new to deadlifts and losing grip at 80kg.

    Should i keep with it, drop 5kg and more reps, or get straps?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Have you used mixed grip yet?

    It really depends on how much you care about grip strength or being able to deadlift without straps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭Quiet Achiever


    I haven't used mix grip, and maybe that's what i need to do. I did try gripping the bar like that but thought it felt unbalanced and I didn't lift.

    I am lifting for functional strength as part of general fitness. I'm not aiming for numbers, competition, or aesthetic. Just being in decent shape.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    would couple of those thin rubber stretch bands work for you, you might be able to keep a tighter grip on the bar?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Use chalk. Use mixed or hook grip.

    Straps at 80kg are a crutch imo



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    When you say "losing grip" is the bar slipping our your grip strength is failing?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    I am assuming the hands are opening, involuntarily, towards the end of a set.

    Before I'd consider this a sign of something 'wrong', even at 80kg, I'd just want to know a bit more context.

    The first thing to say is that I'm not a fan of long deadlift sets, and if - for example - you were doing sets of 8-15 deadlifts it's more understandable that your grip is going to fail than if you're doing sets of 3-5.

    An 80kg deadlift would be considered a novice or relatively weight for a lot of men, particularly those at or above 80kg bodyweight, but it's important to note that this not the whole training population these days - it discounts females, smaller men and older trainees. An 80kg deadlift for reps is a different proposition for a slighter person, particularly if they're relatively new to training or past middle age, than for a young male trainee, and that's forgotten on this forum sometimes.

    There's definitely a context where, if a double overhand grip is being used, and the hands are starting to open on final work sets, and all else is going fine, and you feel like you could otherwise continue to progress in weight, with good form, then I think yes, potentially fine to start using straps or take a mixed grip.

    Your deadlift sets are an opportunity to challenge some of the largest muscle groups in your body - hamstrings, glutes, abdominal muscles, back. I don't believe it makes sense to let your grip be the limiting factor, particularly if it's noticeably weak. I think the answer is go strapless or use double overhand grip during warm-up sets, but for worksets use mixed grip or straps. If your grip really needs to be brought along, train it afterwards by adding in some heavy barbell holds - double overhand grip - at the end of the workout. The hands / grip recovers very well from frequent training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I’d suggest they are the same thing. Or rather one is a product of the other (plus the grip variables)



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    They likely are. But there’s a chance sweaty palms are the cause, so I want to eliminate that

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That’s a fair point about training population. I tend to assume a post is an average male, and that is they were old, young, slight, female etc, that it would be mentioned. But it’s not always.

    you were doing sets of 8-15 deadlifts it's more understandable that your grip is going to fail than if you're doing sets of 3-5.

    Is it? A 10rep set requires you to hold on much longer than 3reps obviously. But the load will be much lighter (75-80%).

    In order for it to me more likely for grip to fail at high reps. Your grip muscles would need to fatigue faster than your hips. I’m not saying they don’t, but I’ve seen no evidence that they do. Would he interested if you had any info. Grip is an interest.

    One caveat is that hips are stronger than double overhand max. So grip is typical the limited factor at all rep ranges.

    Your deadlift sets are an opportunity to challenge some of the largest muscle groups in your body - hamstrings, glutes, abdominal muscles, back. I don't believe it makes sense to let your grip be the limiting factor, particularly if it's noticeably weak. I think the answer is go strapless or use double overhand grip during warm-up sets, but for worksets use mixed grip or straps

    I agree that you should not let grip limit your training of hips, posterior chain., etc. But at the same time, removing the grip aspect will see it left further and further behind.

    I like the approach of double overhand up to the work set (or as far as possible).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    You could be right about longer sets not being more likely to cause grip failure, I don't have anything to back that up. I suppose if the RPE was the same for both rep ranges, I intuitively think the longer duration set would be more taxing on the grip, but I have no proof and it could just be an anecdotally formed idea.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Deadlifting for sets of more than 8 is a sign o mental illness. Ask any doctor!

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I think for most people. Their double overhand grip will fail at sub max intensity at all ranges. People might confuse that with grip fatigue at higher reps.

    Would be kind of hard to test. Find 5RM, find 12RM. Fond DOH 5RM (grip will fail). Test DOH 12rep set at sale relative intensity. I can't even remember what by work set load should be each week.

    I'm currently doing 15 rep set for my Deadlifts. Romanian, but still.

    Also 15s on Bench, Press, Rows, Pull-downs, and other accessories. Maybe something is wrong with me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Most people need to set the supinated/underhand about an inch wider in order for it to feel balanced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Has always been my experience for myself and training others that grip is on average more of a limiting factor on high rep deads than with heavy attempts.


    In general I definitely agree with you that straps are used far too often. I know some people claim they don’t care. Personally think that’s a bit daft given you’d struggle to display any ‘real world’ strength without a strong grip. Even if you just train for aesthetics, a strong grip means jacked arms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Can you give an example of grip failing at high rep?

    I'm not saying it can't happen, I just think that high reps, the load is light, that people are simply less likely to think about the relative % of the lift.

    For argument sake, say DOH max is 80% of mixed/true 1RM. If somebody has a 1RM of 200kg, that would mean a DOH max of 160kg. and then their 5,10 and 15 reps max would be ~140kg, 120kg and 100kg respectively. That seams reasonable to me.

    If grip was fatiguing early on high reps deads. They'd be struggling to hit 100kg for 15reps DOH. I'd be surprised if that were the case based on a 200kg max. I think its more likely that people simply overload with a something more proportional to the their true/mixed max. (175/150/125kg in this case).

    Complete agree RE straps. Forearms still to get fried from volume easier. After a few max efforts sets, grip recovery will slow. So I can understand a powerlifter or strong man introducing them to complete high volume/high intensity days. But guys who jut want to be stronger, want to be bigger, or just want to train. Most of the time use straps as a shortcut.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    anyone got comfortable DIY ways of anchoring my feet during sit ups please ?

    I’ve been sticking them under the bottom rail thing of my exercise bike or putting weights over / on them….both do work to an extent but seriously uncomfortable……thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,668 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Regarding grip... From anecdotal experience, my deadlift grip (both mixed/DOH) improved massively when I did a period of farmers carries and stayed with me after I stopped the carries, but continued deadlifting.

    I took a few years off serious training before/after lockdowns and haven't done farmers carries since coming back and I notice my DOH grip isn't anywhere near what it used to be.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Don’t do sit-ups. They’re terrible for your back.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 506 ✭✭✭swededmonkey


    try butterfly situps. Removes the need to anchor your feet and engages your core/ab muscles much better imo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    I don’t prescribe my weights based off a DOH max so that’s prob the difference!

    My general approach is DOH until it fails, then mixed/hook, then straps. Allows me to tax grip and move heavy weight.

    Typically rarely need the straps for anything under 5 reps. Particularly if hooking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I don’t base %s off DOH max either, not even sure what it is.

    But it highlights that DOH grip failing is not due to fatigue at high reps, but simply the load being too high. Would likely fail at the 1-5 rep equivalent.

    12 rep Romanians tonight. Will go for 15 and move up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Decline press up q, I get a piercing pain above the shoulder blade on an off on one side, is there a stretch or other exercise I can do to get rid of it? it shouldnt be a warm up issue as its about my 3rd or 4th exercise in and will have done a set of normal press ups first

    Post edited by silverharp on

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Try reducing the height of the decline. It will put less load on your shoulder and you can build up from there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,657 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Losing 30kg of fat will require a prolonged and sustained calorie deficit. That is not really conducive to building muscle, so I'd limit my expectation for how much muscle you can build. But bare in mind when losing weight you will look more muscled, and when adding resistence training you will get stronger without needs to add muscle mass - through neurological adaption.

    Bands can add as much resistance as you need. To get really heavy résistance, you need a frame or rack to which the bands can be anchored. A mix of bands and weights is probably best.

    When you tried benching, when you say failed, do mean failing a rep? How do you know it was triceps failing? Just because you can't feel chest working doesn;t mean it isn't working



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    ok that makes sense, when I started working on pressups, I didnt remember it being a issue , there might have been a gap and then when I got back to it it appeared, something obviously shifted.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭Quiet Achiever


    Maybe a dumb question,.but how do you guys decide on fitness goals?

    I'm a bit torn for the new year.. I've started doing strength fairly recently, and while progress has been slow due to not having too much time, there has been progress and i am enjoying it.

    My goal was to do strength twice a week and run twice a week which i see as very time effective and great all round benefits.

    But now I am torn whether to focus on this and put in some good park run times, sign up to 10ks and maybe adventure races in the summer, all the while gradually increasing strength

    Vs

    Focusing one 3 solid strength shifts a week and getting to body weight bench, 1.5 bw squat, 2 bw deadlift.

    I think both are great plans. So how to pick one?

    Maybe just shut up and do one says you.



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