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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    SLow cooker, highly recommended. Throw it all in and come home to a tasty cooked dinner



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Heat pumps are no use in the majority of the Irish housing stock, you can forget that pipe dream.

    EVs are no great shakes in cost per km when compared to a decent diesel which will do way more than 40mpg. Most EVs will take two around full charges to realise the same mileage as a standard car's diesel tank.

    Anyone considering to switch all their energy needs to just electricity (putting all their eggs in one basket) is playing a risky game. If there are prolonged power outages, at least someone who hasn't can drive their diesel car to move and light the stove to keep warm.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    And what do we do for the other ~20hrs a day at this time of year? Do we shut down the country.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Why? What happens at this time of the year for 20 hours a day?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306



    Help me out here. I'm looking at this and wondering which of us is losing the plot.

    In a renewable dominated grid, the cost of the fuel is zero at the point of generation, with costs associated with storage and converting the electricity into a storage medium

    Almost all of the running costs are fixed, so whether the wind turbine is generating electricity for 24 hours a day, or for 4 hours a day, the fixed costs are almost the same. Therefore, it makes enormous sense to have the wind turbines generating electricity as much of the time as possible, and then using the surplus energy to charge batteries, pump water, convert water to hydrogen/ammonia etc

    This is very different to using fossil fuels, where the biggest cost is the fuel, so there is a break even point where if the price of electricity goes below the cost of the fuel, the power station should stop producing energy

    Let's say for the sake of argument that the capacity factor of wind is 40%. It's actually closer to 30% (source: Eirgrid) but assume that it will increase for offshore wind:

    Historically wind farms get paid for everything they generate. They get priority dispatch ahead of all other generators and they also get paid for dispatch-down. The latter means that they are recompensed for either curtailment (when their power isn't needed), congestion (when a particular section of the grid is overloaded), or frequency control (when there is too much renewable power to balance). The amount of dispatch-down has been increasing with renewables penetration:


    In 2020 the level of dispatch-down varied as high as 18%, averaged 12% for the whole island (11.4% for Ireland and 14.8% for Northern Ireland):



    EU rules on payments for dispatch-down are set to change. Nobody can afford to pay for an unlimited amount of power they can't use. But so far, someone investing in a wind farm can factor payments for everything into their ROI calculation. If they don't get paid full whack then the equation changes. The amount they need to charge goes up.

    New technology on the grid allows more renewables to be accommodated. For example, BESS can provide peaking capacity and frequency control services. Increased grid capacity reduces congestion. That's all great but none of this stuff is free, in fact it's eye-wateringly expensive. It's not an accident that the fascinating "Redefining Energy" podcast is hosted by two investment bankers talking about the energy transition ...

    Have a listen to episode 111 from this month, where they talk to a BESS provider operating in the UK, Ireland and the US. Greenies tend to talk as if these services sprout up from nowhere for the good of humanity. Nope, these are hardnosed business people who buy energy for zero and sell it back at €1,500/MWh. It's a superb business model that you and I are paying handsomely for.

    So I just don't get it when you talk about a "zero cost of fuel and fixed running costs" for this 30+GW of excess capacity that we are talking about building. If I'm a wind investor who can afford to invest based on a 40% capacity factor and being able to sell everything I can produce at, say, €80/MWh ... then that's how much it costs. If you tell me I no longer get paid for curtailment, then my prices go up correspondingly so that my ROI stays the same. If you tell me there's no more curtailment on your EU2040 supergrid then that's fine and dandy: my prices stay the same.

    If you are the system operator who has to buy my output, then I'm pleased for you that you no longer have to pay for curtailment. Instead you have pay a BESS provider. Or you have to use my output at 10% round trip efficiency, after you have paid other providers for electrolysis, hydrogen storage and/or ammonia production and storage, and regeneration. Every extra service you pay for, every extra inefficiency, is on top of the cost of already expensive wind generation.

    If you have 9GW of average demand in 2040 but need 37GW of wind capacity you pay for all of that 37GW at the same rates (inflation adjusted) as you paid for each GW in 2023. It doesn't get cheaper because there's more of it. In fact, you have to pay on the double, or the triple, for all those other services and for your massively expanded grid. You still pay me (the wind generator) €80/MWh, and maybe 10x that for every MWh that has to do a round trip to storage.

    As I said, somebody is losing the plot here and I'm ready to stand corrected if it's me. I am begging to understand how:

    The marginal cost of energy from these plants will be extremely difficult for Fossil fuel or even Nuclear to compete with, with Storage working in synergy with renewables to take advantage of the very low costs of energy when there is surplus supply.

    Because if I'm a wind provider who's already getting paid for everything I can generate, and my whole investment thesis depends on that, then nothing changes just because I happen to be the guy building the 37th gigawatt of capacity. My supply isn't "surplus". I'm either on the same footing as everyone else or I can't afford to invest.

    And if you're the system operator then, great, you get back 12% more "free" energy compared to 2020 when you had to curtail it. Except it certainly ain't free -- all those extra services you needed to accommodate it makes it the most expensive power you ever bought. As a wag in my organisation used to wryly ask about things that sounded too good to be true: "Free ... but at what cost?"

    Post edited by ps200306 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    ... or burned up house. I cant believe anyone would be dumb enough to advocate turning electrical appliance with food on and leaving the house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    200,000 is a terrible number of cattle. Please everyone when (ever ) the GE is called, please everyone remember this when those green candidates come knocking on the door.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    If you can make a slow cooker catch fire you deserve a medal



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Said the quiet part loud eh?

    Might not be the best of ideas to show the contempt greens have for the population so publicly



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Apparently there are medal winners out there. As with everything the question is not if but when. Things can and will break.


    "The Federal Emergency Management Agency states that between 2012 and 2015, slow cookers caused 103 fires.

    That might be a small number compared to the fires caused by other household appliances, but it shows you should always be careful."

    and

    "Many of the incidents in the fire data we analyzed were caused by unattended cooking. And although the promise of a slow cooker is that you can come home to a hot meal after it's cooked in a slow cooker all day, we don't recommend leaving it on when you aren't in the house."



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    As soon as you posted this I expect they rapidly will go to google to find some sort of random post to back up that slow cookers will set the house on fire

    How is the TCO going for Solar PV? 🤔

    Contempt because people use slow cookers :-) are "greens" the only people who use slow cookers? news to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Terrible half way through month and only 36kWh generated from home solar

    fairly sure I use more on making coffee and tea while reading silly comments here in mornings

    we really do get **** all sun for extended periods in this country hence the yearly 10% capacity factor



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    I prefer to live in advanced modern society where we have electricity 24/7 every day of year and not during 3 or so summer months on the rare days it’s sunny and water doesn’t pour out of sky constantly



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Do you not get that in Ireland from the grid?

    Did you buy solar PV thinking it would supply 100% of your electricity requirements?

    Did you do any sort of research before spending thousands of euro on a system which you seem to have no idea how it works or why you would invest in it?

    Couple of things for other people thinking of buying solar PV

    1. Do research
    2. Do a TCO analysis
    3. Ask others who have already installed the system for advice
    4. Get 3 quotes from reputable companies
    5. Ask for references from the companies and talk to the people
    6. You can never do too much research especially when spending money


  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    You talking about the grid which has one of most expensive prices in world precisely because of unreliable wind and solar? Where the plan is to add 37GW of even more unreliable wind??



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Random post lol.

    Fact is that even manufacturers do not recommend leaving them on while you are not in the house and you casually suggested to use it exactly that way. Unattended cooking means you do not have to stand by the stove but it certainly do not mean you can waltz off the house for several hours.

    Although a lot of the people use slow cookers, the only green I know who suggested using it against manufacturer recommendation is you.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,184 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Unreliable wind? In this country? That's the best joke I've heard yet



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Yes unreliable and random

    here is what our 6300MW of wind been doing during what is usually windiest time of year

    We can’t just switch off the economy and country for days at a time or during peak hours almost every day

    What we do now is burn coal and gas the majority of time wind is underperforming which leads us to have co2 emissions that are 7x of France

    right now; Nuclear France 50g

    Windy Ireland 365g

    At no day of the year we even come close to matching France



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes you are correct that we currently don't have enough wind turbines or battery backups to stabilise the grid but we are a very windy country

    Also worth noting that if we don't make the transition to renewables we will eventually need to "switch off the economy and country" when gas and oil run out. Or do you have a better plan for that when that day comes?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Heat pump can work in houses if you invest in insulation first. the hybrid heat pumps should be pushed more for retrofits. I am still trying to work out if the high temp heat pumps will work in retrofits but very few installation to make a statement on that

    In regards to EV's, like any car it depends on what type of driving you are doing. If you spend the majority of the time doing long distance motorway driving then yes a diesel makes more sense. The average distance travelled in cars in Ireland is 12.7km. In these sort of trips an electric is more efficient.

    In terms of cost per KM if you are filling at night rate or similar the cost per km is also lower.

    You seem to be talking about the range difference in a car, yes a diesel will go further than an electric but again it depends on what type of driving you are at. Someone in Dublin for instance might fill a diesel car once a month and the cost per km will be a lot higher because of the type of driving. Someone doing a 200km a day commute to work on motorway will find the TCO a lot harder to work out. Especially when you consider the up front cost of the electric might be more.

    Again like anything, you need to do some research, a blanket statement like you have made is incorrect because for a lot of people electric will work, for others it won't.

    How many times has Ireland had a "prolonged power outage"? when they have happened it's due to a storm and most people would charge up their phone in case of this risk. It's the same with a car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Which if you read the thread would cost hundreds of billions every few dozen years

    And yes if you read the thread cheaper, greener and more reliable solutions have been proposed, solution that half the EU members use and doesn’t require waiting on nonexistent hydrogen and ammonia tech



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Honestly I don't know what you are talking about now. People use slow cookers. All over the World. Deal with it



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The topic has been done to death, expect lots of post of "wHaT haPpeNs wHen the wInD dOeS bLoW"

    The actual document from the government says we will have a mixed grid of multiple points of generation including wind, solar, gas etc etc

    Ireland has huge capacity to generate electricity off wind because we are an island with the atlantic ocean along some of the coast. But yes we will neeed a mixed grid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    There’s no need to get abusive

    he rightly pointed out that it is dangerous to leave this appliance unattended and against every manufacturer recommendation

    a point that you failed to address



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