Champions Cup 2024

icdg · 13-12-2023 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489736#Comment_121489736

I find this one odd, as thanks to the Round of 16, you need to play 8 games to win the cup - in the old format you needed to play 9. Effectively only one week is being saved over the classic format.

What was really great about the classic format though was the self selecting QF draw, which effectively gave every team something to play for heading into Round 6. No dead rubbers like in the football Champions League. It made Round 6 compelling viewing as the QF draw changed.

eagle eye · 13-12-2023 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489598#Comment_121489598

Everybody in the pool faced them. There was no advantage for any team.

In pool 4 one team doesn't play Leinster, another doesn't play La Rochelle. The rest meet both.

Do you not think the teams who only have to play one of those two stand a better chance of qualifying for the knockout stages?

aloooof · 13-12-2023 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489870#Comment_121489870

I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying "highly incentivized to keep playing". Yes, a home QF is important, but there's comparatively less jeopardy, when 16 of the 24 teams in the groups will still go thru, and another 4 go into the Challenge Cup.

Gloucester last season, for example, won their opening game, and essentially fielded a youth's team in only the 2nd group game

Every team that won a single game last season qualified for further European fixtures.

awec · 13-12-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489897#Comment_121489897

Honestly I believe the round of 16 was a compromise, I believe the French at least would happily drop it.

They wanted fewer games, the URC unions didn’t, so they came up with this format where some teams have 2 fewer games and some teams have 1 fewer.

The self selecting QF in the old format had draw backs too. It exaggerated the benefit of getting weak teams in your pool.

irelandrover · 13-12-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489974#Comment_121489974

Yes, but this year you also get a home quarter final and semi final. Last year the semi was a neutral venue as far as I remember.

AdamD · 13-12-2023 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489974#Comment_121489974

By doing that Gloucester showed they had little interest or belief in competing in the latter stages of the tournament. The teams who think they can win it we'll be aiming for home draws. Unfortunately I'm not sure many teams really think they can

aloooof · 13-12-2023 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489993#Comment_121489993

Ah hadn't realised that. So potentially 3 home knock-out games to play for?

Wasn't there some quirk a couple of season ago where the lower rank team, if they won, would get the home SF? Would make sense if that had been done away with too.

aloooof · 13-12-2023 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121490024#Comment_121490024

Which would be the same case in the old format as well. It's hard to keep everyone happy, but can't say I'm a fan of the current group stage format.

eagle eye · 13-12-2023 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489630#Comment_121489630

What other sport pool/division do.you know where all teams don't play each other?

awec · 13-12-2023 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121490039#Comment_121490039

The Champions League is adopting a similar format from next season. 1 big pool of 36 with each club playing only 2 teams in the pool.

hold my beer · 13-12-2023 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121490057#Comment_121490057

Think it's 8 teams you play in that.

Digifriendly · 13-12-2023 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489870#Comment_121489870

Exeter got through IIRC by winning 3 games under the old format. And I think it was either Llanelli or Bath lost first 2 matches a few seasons ago and qualified for KO stages. Back to back matches need to return IMHO.

sydthebeat · 13-12-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489931#Comment_121489931

sorry but this shows a marked misunderstanding of the old system.

the Italian teams were the perennial whipping boys. Whatever second seed that was selected in their group were delighted because of 2 of the 6 seconds seeds got through to the last 8.

in a quick review of every HC since 2000 to 2018 shows that in 17 of the 19 competitions, in the pool with an Italian team in it, the second placed seed got through. Only 06 and 13 it didnt happen. And that even includes teh 4 years that it was a 20 team competition. In EVERY year of the 20 team competition, the pool with the Italian team provided a second seed QF

so every team DOES NOT play the weakest team, and therefore

There was no advantage for any team.

and

It's a ridiculous set up when teams get an advantage of playing a weaker team and another doesn't

is patently incorrect.

There is most certainly advantage to the three other teams within the pool of the Italian team. Advantage to these 3 teams equates to a disadvantage to the other 20 teams in the competition. im very surprised this stuff has to be explained to be honest, as its so patently clear.

Cookiemunster · 13-12-2023 2:49pm

The Italian teams are a moot point at this stage. They don't automatically qualify any more. Even with shield winners qualifying they were nowhere near qualifying. The 6 x 4 format (or 5 x 4) would be much tougher now that it's purely meritocratic qualification and the Saffers are in.

sydthebeat · 13-12-2023 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121490801#Comment_121490801

The Italian teams are a moot point at this stage.

my argument is not about THIS stage, just to clarify to you.

the poster was trying to argue that the old system was better because teams didnt get an advantage as they had to play all teams in the pools.

my response was purely a discussion around how the old system DID give an advantage to teams from the outset.

awec · 13-12-2023 4:18pm

Yea there's definitely some misty eyed reminiscing of the old format but it had it's flaws.

The final weekend produced some good fixtures but also a lot of dross fixtures or even heavily imbalanced ones when teams knew they were out. Was it Castres who sent their kids to play Munster in the final pool round which helped Munster get a spot ahead of Leinster for example?

In the old format you could have known after round 2 that you were almost certainly gone.

Burkie1203 · 13-12-2023 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491419#Comment_121491419

That was R92 I think in 2013

Red Silurian · 13-12-2023 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489993#Comment_121489993

Fairly sure the semi-final is home country neutral venue, as in previous years. I think it's why Munster are having the odd friendly in Pairc Ui Caoibh so they can bring a potential neutral-venue semi there

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491657#Comment_121491657

The semi finals have not been home country neutral venue for about a decade at this point. They have just been in grounds designated by ERC/EPRC and most teams do not have sufficiently large home grounds.

Red Silurian · 14-12-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491862#Comment_121491862

It might not be written into the rule book as such but it has still followed that rule to an extent. Had Munster beaten Toulouse back in the QF of 2022 we would have had the bizarre situation of being "home" to Leinster in Landsdowne Road in the SF

Podge_irl · 14-12-2023 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493656#Comment_121493656

That had nothing to do with it being a "neutral" venue and everything to do with it being a larger venue.

It's simply not a rule, unwritten or otherwise. ERC/EPCR take revenue from the semi-finals so want them in large stadiums. The rule about neutral venues in the home country was very explicitly written and they removed it for a reason.

I suppose you could argue that functionally it amounts to the same thing for almost all clubs. Leinster would definitely be in the Aviva and I imagine the South African sides would be in their own stadiums.

pickarooney · 14-12-2023 12:35pm

What is the minimum capacity for a SF? It must be somewhere between 25k and 30k if Thomond is too small and Stade Gerland is big enough. Lyon, Racing and Bordeaux are maybe the only French teams that can play at or near their home ground if there's no football match or concert on that weekend.

Podge_irl · 14-12-2023 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494101#Comment_121494101

There isn't one as far as I'm aware.

errlloyd · 14-12-2023 1:31pm

I am pretty sure it is so commercially driven that if you told EPCR that you were willing to pay €100m for a single ticket to watch the game being played in a one-seat capacity stadium, they'd happily put it there. Their objective is solely to maximise revenue. A large part of why they won't put valuable games in South Africa is because even though the stadiums are big, the ticket prices are miniscule.

Red Silurian · 14-12-2023 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494033#Comment_121494033

South African sides will only ever see a Semi-Final if two of them make it to that stage against each other, ticket prices and attendance levels are too low for Europeans to go

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494101#Comment_121494101

There isn't one but EPCR know where the money lies. So a Semi involving an Irish team will only ever be in Landsdowne, maybe PUC if the rental price is right. The French prefer to watch on the TV than attend so they'd a smaller stadium happy to have a 3pm Sunday kickoff would maximise the revenue. A semi involving Saracens could be held in Loftus Road

pickarooney · 14-12-2023 6:03pm

"The French prefer to watch on the TV than attend "

Not sure what this is referring to but France has by some distance the best stadium attendances in the world.

Podge_irl · 14-12-2023 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495706#Comment_121495706

South African sides will only ever see a Semi-Final if two of them make it to that stage against each other, ticket prices and attendance levels are too low for Europeans to go

On this you are correct actually

2.8 The semi-finals will be played in Europe and the highest-ranked clubs from the pool stage will have home country advantage.

Red Silurian · 15-12-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496252#Comment_121496252

Don't sound too surprised haha!

15-12-2023 3:16pm

Interestingly, La Rochelle have gone pretty much fully loaded to SA to face the Stormers.

Team:

15-9, 1-8:

Brice Dulin, Dillyn Leyds, UJ Seuteni, Jonathan Danty, Jules Favre, Antoine Hastoy, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Reda Wardi, Pierre Bourgarit, Uini Atonio, Thomas Lavault, Will Skelton, Paul Boudehent, Levani Botia, Yoan Tanga.

Strongish Stormers side too so should be a good game. I expect LAR to bounce back with a win though.

Podge_irl · 15-12-2023 6:25pm

6 day turnaround, full day of travelling, against a fully loaded and rested Stormers team?

It would be impressive if they pulled it off.

Champions Cup 2024

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