FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3 - Threadbanned User List in OP

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491682#Comment_121491682

That's your answer, I should be volunteering in UHL. Like I said earlier, you lot have some gall.

As for the rest of you argument about housing, even if it wasn't a load of nonsense (and it is), why haven't FFG improved the planning process?

If that was the problem, why has it taken this long to fix?

JP Liz V1 · 13-12-2023 6:14pm

Frank Kilbride admits €2.6m money laundering charges, a FG politician

Clo-Clo · 13-12-2023 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491739#Comment_121491739

Faux outrage is best description.

Multiple threads now you are complaining about the HSE, nurses etc. Never any answers, just complaining. On a previous thread I tried to explain something to you and you went off on one because you couldnt understand.

In terms of housing, you don't understand the planning process, you don't understand the building process. I think we will leave it at that.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41222296.html

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491550#Comment_121491550

This is not because of other parties blocking building. Were planning appeals removed in the morning I don't think there'd be any significant change to housing output. There simply isn't the capacity to build because FFG have shifted delivery entirely, and very lucratively, to a private sector which has no great incentive to increase output.

This makes absolutely no sense. Planning is absolutely an issue, restrictions on density are absolutely an issue, and there is very limited data that would suggest developers are deliberately holding back on construction. There is also quite an obvious incentive to increase output - you make more money. The difficulties in increasing output are all either related to planning which delays or inhibits construction that does take place, or lack of resources.

This trope that there is some mass cartel like effort to restrict supply to maintain high prices is utterly ludicrous.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491739#Comment_121491739

As for the rest of you argument about housing, even if it wasn't a load of nonsense (and it is), why haven't FFG improved the planning process?

They literally have a planning bill in parliament at the moment.

As to why it is not fixed in general, the answer is that the majority of the population are a bunch of flaming hypocrites who want more housing but want it built nowhere near their own idyllic abodes and councillors have never lost support by rejecting developments.

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491800#Comment_121491800

I've been hearing about planning delays for the last twenty years now...

Like I said, why is it only being looked at now?

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491787#Comment_121491787

To increase output, given the shortage of skilled workers, would involve increasing the salaries of tradesmen and labourers, to incentivise people to the industry.

Because there are limits to what people can pay for a house (central bank lending rules) this will eat into builders and developers profit margins, as it can't be passed to the consumer.

What's the incentive to build more houses, which is more work, when the profit margin decreases? It's doing more work for the same money.

There doesn't have to be a 'cartel'. This is just the kind of thing that happens when the market is badly governed.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492106#Comment_121492106

Poor governance, vested interests and the fact that it is not a straightforward thing to do. Many jurisdictions, specifically does with common law for whatever reason, are having the same trouble at the moment.

And also, because quite frankly a large percentage of the population don't want it fixed no matter what they say. Because then they won't be able to constantly object with "I'm not against development, I just want the right development" ad nauseum.

There is plenty of blame to be laid at the Government's feet. Understaffing and underfunding of ABP chief among them. However, it is absolutely not an easy thing to fix overall.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 8:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492133#Comment_121492133

Companies the world over across multiple industries balance profit margins against actual profits. This is not unique to construction. What does seem to be unique to construction is that people are convinced there is a national/global cartel essentially price fixing and deliberately slowing production.

A developer who builds twice as much might only make 190% as much profit due to declining margins, but that is still them making a lot more money.

There does have to be a cartel, because otherwise one developer would eye the gap for just building lots and absolutely rake in the money. We don't think car companies are deliberately holding back production of cars to make their individual cars more expensive. Why on earth do people so readily believe construction developers are?

Thankfully, when and if we move towards state built housing again and run into all of the exact same problems maybe we will look at solving the underlying issues.

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 8:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492137#Comment_121492137

I'll agree with you that it's not an easy fix.

It'll take years to sort out.

The sooner FFG get out we might be able to get started.

The problem has nothing to do with common law jurisdictions. The law hasn't changed radically in centuries.

What has changed, is relying solely on a private market which is not a 'free' market.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492168#Comment_121492168

What has changed, is relying solely on a private market which is not a 'free' market.

What has changed is that lots of people now own houses and don't want other people getting houses built near them and old people aren't dying as early.

I have no idea in what sense you think it is not a "free" market, though the protectionism of existing homeowners is certainly a problem.

Maybe there would indeed be a raft of mid-density apartments built all over the city by a SF govt and this would be readily accepted by councillors and populations. And maybe all the homeowners in the country would accept potential devaluing of their assets and also paying for the necessary subsidising of these new builds to make them "affordable". But I highly doubt it.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491682#Comment_121491682

Your last paragraph is silly. It lets you down.

The trolley crisis in UHL has been a major problem for many years. They established a task force to solve it but still it tops the charts for trolley numbers every year. The blame here is on the minister for health and the government yet you ask what what MegamanBoo did to solve it. That's infantile. At least acknowledge we have a trolley crisis that the government cannot fix despite numerous fake promises.

Your story about the housing crisis being caused by blocked planning is nonsense too. Remember we have been waiting for the FFG governments to reform planning laws since Mahon. They don't do reform. Any link to back up anything you say or do you just deflect to the opposition all the time? I voted for FG for 20 years and at least I have the cop on to know I was fooling myself.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 8:38pm

UHL was in the news since early October.

October 4th

Trolley numbers in UHL approach record levels - Limerick Live (limerickleader.ie)

TROLLEY numbers in University Hospital Limerick are approaching record levels this Wednesday.

121 people are on trolleys in UHL, according to numbers published by the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation.

There are 61 people waiting for beds in the Emergency Department, while 60 are in wards elsewhere in the hospital. The record for daily trolley numbers in UHL is 126, which was set in April 2022.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 8:40pm

And remember it is acknowledged by all clinical experts that the trolley crisis leads to a lower level of care and ultimately deaths.

Candlelit vigil to take place for those who have suffered in the fallout of the UHL trolley crisis (limerickpost.ie)

A CANDLELIT vigil remembering patients who have died having languished on trolleys in the persistently-overcrowded University Hospital Limerick is to take place outside the entrance of the hospital this Sunday (December 17).

The Mid West Hospital Campaign (MWHC) group, who have consistently called for the reopening of 24-hour accident and emergency units in Clare, north Tipperary, and Limerick city and county, announced the vigil this week.

The group announced the vigil in a statement released after the HSE apologised to the family of Aoife Johnston, from Shannon, County Clare, a 16-year old girl who died of sepsis and meningitis having spent 12 hours on a trolley at UHL.

23rd October

‘They’re prepared to let us die’ - widow of man who died after 36-hour trolley wait says she would rather die than go to overcrowded UHL | Independent.ie

‘They’re prepared to let us die’ - widow of man who died after 36-hour trolley wait says she would rather die than go to overcrowded UHL

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 8:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492178#Comment_121492178

It's really quite simple why it's not a free market.

It's accepted economic theory that a free market is one where producers and consumers can enter and exit freely.

That doesn't apply to housing in Ireland and likely never will.

The normal rules of supply and demand don't apply in this kind of distorted market and this is especially the case with the labour shortages we see now.

The comparison you've made with the car industry doesn't hold up because the same market factors don't apply.

With labour constraints as they are now, increasing output massively increases cost, so why would you?

It's not a cartel and I'm not claiming it is, it's just profiteering in a restricted market.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 8:44pm

Fine Gael 2007

Remember this famous Fine Gael ad from 2007? · TheJournal.ie

16 years ago Enda Kenny promised to end the trolley crisis.

Imagine how many extra beds we could have if the Children's hospital was built on time and anywhere near budget (currently 7 times over budget).

Fine Gael, lying to the people since 2007.

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 8:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491774#Comment_121491774

Insults aside, I think I've a fairly decent grasp on the construction industry.

The article you've shared is based entirely on quotes from an industry figure, might it just be they have a vested interest?

Further, there's no mention in the article of increases in planning objections, only decreases in planning applications.

Could that be anything to do with rising interest rates, and the cost of living crisis you think?

Clo-Clo · 13-12-2023 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492222#Comment_121492222

Maybe on last paragraph

I posted a link above from the examiner. From the article

"The problem is planning, planning, planning and within this, the problem is a legislative one," Mr Lawlor continued. "The new planning act, launched in March was aimed at addressing the delays in the planning system but we have yet to see any real evidence of this.

"What we are left with is a shortage of shovel-ready sites, meaning builders, starved of sites, are bidding the site prices up, driving site prices up, impacting viability, increasing risk, and negatively impacting delivery."

Deflect to opposition? I was talking about people and parties. Interesting you would mention the opposition, trying to tell us something

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492323#Comment_121492323

No response on UHL? That was the substance of my reply.

Where is the reference to all the blocked planning and objections?

So the governments delay in planning legislation is one of the many blame factosrs? Agreed.

Clo-Clo · 13-12-2023 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492343#Comment_121492343

Post away about UHL. I don't see anyone saying the HSE doesn't have issues. I just posted that people believe the party they vote for have a better plan to fix it than other. No theatrics of walking into ER etc required.

Yes planning needs to be updated, that is not going to resolve the shortfall we have in housing now because we have had planning delays for years. Projects which should be available now are only breaking ground.

Did anyone think a political party would systematically block housing for years to create a housing crisis and drive it to a peak in a hunger to get into government? I certainly didn't. I don't think anyone did. Remember the planning laws worked before, so what's the change now?

Remember you brought up the opposition so you are aware of the issue yourself. So I think you know the answer yourself.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492242#Comment_121492242

All of which would indeed suggest the planning is the problem, not the private nature of the building, as that is the primary blockage of entering the market (this is not a suggestion for no planning of course).

You are conflating profit margins decreasing with actual profit. Building more with potentially higher costs still makes more money.

Nor, for that matter, are you making it remotely clear how having state building will solve any of this

MegamanBoo · 13-12-2023 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492379#Comment_121492379

Ok, let's say planning objections are fixed in the morning...

If I want to set up as a developer. Where do I get workers?

There's other restrictions, but that's the big one right now.

And I understand the difference between profit and profit margins, but you're basing your assumptions again on free market conditions. Do you think profit margins would decrease in this case in a smooth, linear fashion? Or that producers would want to jeopardise their very favourable market conditions?

Clo-Clo · 13-12-2023 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492445#Comment_121492445

Called subcontractors.

If planning is fixed in the morning and you start building today you will at a push start to sell houses in 2 years.

Podge_irl · 13-12-2023 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492445#Comment_121492445

If I want to set up as a developer. Where do I get workers?

They have to pay more, though building higher density buildings would probably help.

Where does the State get them? How is this an issue with relying on Private development? Because that was your primary statement.

Ultimately planning issues and delays also make it incredibly difficult to plan for the future and indeed try and grow the workforce.

The government deserves plenty of blame for the problems. I have no issue with that. I think differently about the solutions, because I simply do not believe that the population of Ireland (or many other countries) are willing to accept the changes needed. People simply don't like development near them.

What I can't understand is why people think that State building is going to change a thing.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492374#Comment_121492374

The opposition is always someone else other than the coalition of chaos. In this case you blamed MegamanBoo for not helping fix UHL. Jesus wept. You're kinda floundering now so I'll leave you to it.

Clo-Clo · 13-12-2023 10:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492639#Comment_121492639

It's cute when people resort to twitter comments like "coalition of chaos".

No I didn't blame them for not fixing UHL. I asked them if they ever helped fund raised etc.

As usual with any of these threads, once people don't have anything of interest to offer they post nonsense like this.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492664#Comment_121492664

I am not on Twitter.

Fund raise? You want members of the public to fund raise for a public hospital? To what end exactly? So they can build more wards / beds and hire more staff? That's your solution?

You want taxpayers to fund raise to help the government fix the trolley crisis despite the current budget for health? Wow.

Maybe we should fund raise for the 2 Billion plus Children's hospital too?

There is a trolley crisis ever year. It gets worse every year. We hit new records earlier this year. Should we all fund raise to help provide extra capacity.

FG promised to end the trolley crisis in 2007. It has failed to do so for 16 years.

Clo-Clo · 13-12-2023 11:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492829#Comment_121492829

People all over Ireland do fundraising for hospitals. From small to large. Not sure why this seems so odd to you. Personally I have been involved in fundraising and donated over the years.

"Wow" 🤣

I didn't ask you to do anything. It certainly looks like you haven't done anything till now so why change.

It's a personal decision for people to fundraiser, something I am happy to help with and donate to.

https://www.activelink.ie/community-exchange/news/105014-lets-fund-it-support-childrens-ark-paediatric-unit-at-university-hospital-limerick

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2022/12/25/friends-big-idea-brings-smiles-to-children-in-limerick-hospital/

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492875#Comment_121492875

Ah stop, you are clueless. The solution to the trolley crisis is to get taxpayers to fund raise. Personally I....yeah right. Genius idea. You should ask Leo and Co to make an address to the people to fund raise for public hospital beds.

Lesson for you...Just before Covid hit (November 2019), the INMO were crying out for help and issuing press releases showing the record numbers on trolleys.

This lack of capacity meant we had much longer lockdowns than many other EU countries. We had to lockdown because our hospitals were already at full capacity. Trip down memory lane for you.

Trolley numbers for 2019 highest since records began, union claims | Independent.ie

Trolley numbers for 2019 highest since records began, union claims

Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation said 108,364 people have gone without beds in 2019 so far.

“We know the problem, but we also know the solutions: extra beds in hospitals, safe staffing levels, and more step-down and community care outside of the hospital.

“No other developed country faces anything close to this trolley problem. It can be solved, but a strong political agenda to drive change is needed.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-12-2023 11:40pm

Barry Cowen (FF TD) on the Tonight Show is getting destroyed on the Housing crisis. He wants the ground to open up. Good panel discussion.

FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3 - Threadbanned User List in OP

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