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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    They can be in favour if they want but it is like being in favour of giving everybody a free Ferrari. It is politically, economically and technically impossible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You claimed only in the last post you don't mention the poll. Want to clarify that?

    Sorry I can't help if you are incapable of reading the content of posts. It was clear.

    The lack of knowledge on this thread is shocking. Now people are talking about heat pumps and have no understanding of how or when a heat pump works.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The technology is being used all over the woeld for decades, so no idea where you get that it is technically impossible. Financially we can see that even for the little we know on offshore wind that even a nuclear plant recently going on-line in Finland even with being over budget beats offshore up a stick economically, and politically as we have seen here alone, from recent changes in legislation, in politics you can never say never.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    1.No idea what that is about.

    2.As I said my reply was on the basis of your example. If that is inconvenient for you then it`s not my problem

    3.I agree that when it comes to economic considerations and what the actual plan is for net zero emissions the lack of knowledge is shocking but what that has to do with heat pumps in a reply to me I have no idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Charge at home for a fraction of the price? Not unless you're on night rate and to hell with that, you'd be gone broke with prices of electricity outside of the 2am to 5am slot.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    Renewable plus storage are already cheaper than fossil fuels in Australia

    Huh? That's not what the article says. It's not even what it's about. It says batteries are cheaper and better for peaking power. No argument from me. I think it's a great use of batteries. The article also says:

    As Rystad Energy points out in its annual assessment of the renewable energy construction market in Australia, battery storage is the one healthy part of the market ...

    Is that not, like, the opposite of what you said it was about? Renewables are hitting the same wall in Australia as elsewhere -- rooftop solar is growing hugely but utility scale projects have been hammered this year by costs and supply issues. There are massive cost issues with grid upgrades too. The latest commitment is $20bn to "rewire the nation". Several billion of that is just to connect the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro scheme. The cost of the scheme itself has blossomed from $2bn to $12bn, it is causing significant ecological damage, and instead of opening next year it's now at least four years away. Another pumped hydro project, Borumba, is costing $14bn to store the equivalent of a single day's output from a large coal plant. You could've built nukes in both cases for the same money and actually generated some electricity.

    I'm sure solar has a future in Australia. If you can't make it work in there, what chance has it got anywhere. But wind energy is a bit of an albatross everywhere, it seems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    The lack of knowledge on this thread is shocking. Now people are talking about heat pumps and have no understanding of how or when a heat pump works.

    LOL.

    Did you find "the government document" about how our future grid is going to work yet?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    can you give me three examples of small island grids with base loads in the order of 3 GW that have 1.4 GW nuclear stations?

    Finland is part of a massive synchronous continental grid. It is not comparable to Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    shared already

    Why do you keep posting about things you don’t understand?



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    As soon as you find examples of same sized grid handling 37 GW of offshore wind 10GW on shore wing and 5GW solar



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Why would I do that? What has it got to do with me?

    You are putting forward dreamy and unworkable solutions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Because that is what the government and the wind lobby are pushing as the solution and is the actual target

    You have made an argument that nuclear is “too big” yet have no answers for how we will handle 50+ GW of unreliable renewables that can go from zero to 50 and back in space of a day

    The alternative to above daft plan or nuclear plan is to continue to burn gas and coal



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The lack of knowledge on this thread is shocking. Now people are talking about heat pumps and have no understanding of how or when a heat pump works.

    Exhibit B of lack of knowledge below... Wow, just wow




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    It is true that no other country has created so much power from wind, we would be the first when we do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You may have missed it but Eirgrid predictions are that by 2050 peak demand here will be in the order of 14 GW. To stick with the current offshore wind hydrogen plan that would require 70 GW nameplate capacity of offshore wind. You brought up that nuclear was not economically possible here so how economically viable is 70 GW offshore wind with all the added hydrogen trimmings ?

    Finland has the same population as Ireland and reactors are not just 1.4 GW. South Korea has operational reactors starting at 665 MW so you can cut your cloth to suit your needs. If our grid can handle 14 GW I do not see where your problem is with nuclear in that regards. Having to import nuclear when we needed it hasn`t fried the grid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Unless somebody comes upon a forest of money trees we would be long broke before that happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yeah especially by comparison to the free cost of construction of the proposed nuclear plant or the free repairs of our current fleet of fossil power plants

    There's something wrong with my above statement. Let's see if you are smart enough to find it. Hint: Bold font



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    All the last few pages has me pining for DaCor to come back. At least they put up a few new links to stuff every now and again



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Compared to the costs we know in regards to nuclear, to the cost we already know for just the capital expenditure for this offshore section of this current plan alone with all the hydrogen trimmings cost being a state secret you mean ?

    But then you being so much in favor of this offshore plan I`m sure you can enlighten me as to the total cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    It's well known that the offshore wind farms recently announced are being built privately so no up-front cost to us and in return they are guaranteed a wholesale price of 8.5c/kWh

    So I don't know how much they cost but it can't be a whole lot if that's the deal on the table



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  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    No need for hyperbole figures were provided in detail and are much much smaller than the daft plan where somehow this island will handle 50+ GW of unreliable renewables



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian




  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    You are welcome to point out posts about free nuclear power

    the costs have been clearly provided unlike your mates who are still not able to put a cost on offshore wind + hydrogen/ammonia + new grids

    but from them figures based on last UK offshore auction we do know offshore is double the prices of HinkleyC which itself was expensive as its new reactor tech



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Like any good investment, costly to build but cheap (free) source of fuel



  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Heat pump can work in houses if you invest in insulation first. the hybrid heat pumps should be pushed more for retrofits. I am still trying to work out if the high temp heat pumps will work in retrofits but very few installation to make a statement on that

    It's not just a bit of insulation though is it, there is alot more to consider and these retrofits cost savage money, even if there are paltry grants offered. Beyond that you are totally at the mercy of the electricity supplier for the costs of heating your home.

    In regards to EV's, like any car it depends on what type of driving you are doing. If you spend the majority of the time doing long distance motorway driving then yes a diesel makes more sense. The average distance travelled in cars in Ireland is 12.7km. In these sort of trips an electric is more efficient.

    Which is my point, diesel is the best value for money and the most convenient for the majority outside of Irish settlements with a population north of 25k. You are also not considering the amount of time it takes to charge an EV - with a diesel/petrol it's pull in and fill up and be gone in five minutes top. People are time poor - they don't want to be sitting around a forecourt for the guts of an hour paying through the nose for fast-charging rates while they look out at the diesel/petrol cars filling up cheaper.

    In terms of cost per KM if you are filling at night rate or similar the cost per km is also lower.

    Night rate is junk for the vast majority of people, especially families of 3 or more. The jacked up peak prices more than gobble up any savings to be made through the 2am-5am period.

    You seem to be talking about the range difference in a car, yes a diesel will go further than an electric but again it depends on what type of driving you are at. Someone in Dublin for instance might fill a diesel car once a month and the cost per km will be a lot higher because of the type of driving. Someone doing a 200km a day commute to work on motorway will find the TCO a lot harder to work out. Especially when you consider the up front cost of the electric might be more.

    See my point above.

    Again like anything, you need to do some research, a blanket statement like you have made is incorrect because for a lot of people electric will work, for others it won't.

    I have done my research which I have posted on here - the fact remains, EVs in their current form are not suitable for a good swathe of the population. Slow charging, poor range, cost of initial outlay, cost of fast charging - which isn't really fast at all, an almost non-existent second-hand market (where batteries are so hammered you'd be lucky to get 80km from a battery charge), etc... it doesn't paint a very nice picture for EVs - now does it?

    The horse has bolted on EV and it's time for a major rethink on EVs and if they have a purpose outside of the bigger population centres. The EU missed a massive open goal when EVs were being mooted.

    The manufacturers should have been mandated to produce interchangeable batteries. You pull into a service station and the forecourt attendant should be able to remove your battery and replace it with a fully charged one at a cost, similar to the way the gas cylinder operation works today.

    How many times has Ireland had a "prolonged power outage"? when they have happened it's due to a storm and most people would charge up their phone in case of this risk. It's the same with a car.

    I'm not talking about Ireland as a whole, but there are pockets of the country that can be left many days without power when poor winter weather brings down lines. An elderly customer in a retrofitted house relying on a heat pump with no power coming in off the grid is left high and dry. Often the strongest storms are accompanied with a cold front pushing through once the storm moves on - this brings usually quite cold weather in it's wake. They can't light a fire to stay warm during these times, they're left quite vulnerable awaiting the power to kick back in and even more hours beyond that while the HP slowly cranks up the heat.

    There is a recurring theme here - HPs are slow to heat houses, EVs are slow to charge up. Electricity is not a great contender for heating and transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    The operating costs of an offshore wind farm are as large as the capital costs

    ^ above figures are a few years out of date and don’t reflect the insane rises in offshore wind costs in last year

    The only thing anyone is getting for free are companies lining their pockets at expense of Irish taxpayers and consumers who already have been guilt tripped into paying one of the highest energy costs in world that is only going up as more wind is added and more gas is needed as backup



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,299 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    On the heat pumps it depends, it's not always the same answer. The hybrid system works by the heat pump bringing the water up to a certain temp and then if the house needs a bump then the oil boiler kicks in. This will work in less well insulated house and retrofits. But I would always suggest insulate first, even if just replacing oil with oil.

    I live outside a major town, my brother lives in the countryside and we both have electric cars. In reality 99% of my driving is A-B every day of the year and this is all within the range of an electric car and then charge at night. He is the same. I have one for years and I think I have used the public system maybe 5 times, he has never used it.

    I do also admit I have a mate who wants to have a 600km range before he will buy an electric, why? no idea. He does less driving than I do because he lives in a village, kids walk to school etc, but every so often he will go golfing etc and wants the ability to not charge for an entire weekend.

    Sorry but a blanket statement saying anyone outside a city can't use an EV is incorrect. Plenty of people it will work for. You just need to do analysis. I would always recommend people to buy based on hardly ever using the public system. I don't have the time to stand for 30 mins at a charger.

    In my case try doing 10-15 trips to schools/sports everyday in a diesel and see the cost balloon compared to an electric. I know because I have a diesel 7 seater because at the moment unless I have close to 100k a 7 seater is not available in electric.

    In terms of interchangeable batteries, most companies looked at this, it never made sense. I think only NIO are moving forward with it. The reasons are multiple why they haven't done battery swap, Tesla spent a huge amount of time looking at it and backed away from it. The interconnects etc required to swap a battery is huge, it's not like pulling out a couple fo AA batteries

    In terms of the market I think we would be a lot better with a mix of fuels, electric/diesel/hybrid. No reason now to have straight petrols anymore. People pick what fuel is best. The false information been fired around about electrics is incredible, mostly because people don't understand the technology. We should also stop all incentives and push that money into public transport. I don't see why the plan is to swap 1 m combustion cars with 1 m electric cars, its ridculous. We need to reduce cars, not swap them


    The people in houses that have prolonged electrical outage are few and far between. So cater for them on a one by one scenario. Oil heating is only planned to be phased out for new builds in 2025, no timeline for existing so you can still cater no problem for older house but even oil with no electricity doesn't work.



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