Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Snooker Loopy · 14-12-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493787#Comment_121493787

Israel's supporters consistently hold it to a lower standard than other democratic nations.

They also hold Israel to a lower standard than Hamas.

In fact as far as I can see there are literally no standards at all which Israel's supporters hold it to.

Certainly Israel's supporters have not seen fit to hold it to any standards at all over anything it has done since 1946 and I don't foresee how that would ever change in the future no matter what grotesque crimes Israel inflicts on others.

Snooker Loopy · 14-12-2023 11:46am

According to what the supporters of Israel say about what's happening in Gaza, Srebrenica couldn't have been genocide.

But it was.

https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/bosnia/srebrenica/

Wolf359f · 14-12-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493833#Comment_121493833

Discussion wasn't about ethnic cleansing or genocide, it was about Israel's policy towards a 2 state solution. The ambassador said the 2 state solution is dead, you said she doesn't make Israeli government policy, I pointed to the ruling party's founding charter and map showing no Palestine, held up by the leader of Israel.

So do you actually believe Israel is planning on a 2 state solution or was the ambassador echoing the government?

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493893#Comment_121493893

I questioned whether the Israeli ambassador's statement to the UK set Israeli government policy.

If people are putting forth her utterances as irrefutable evidence of Israeli Government policy then it is beholding on those people to show that she sets Israeli Government policy.

That's all.

I think it is without doubt that a considerable number of those within the Israeli government do not want a two State solution. I think that the words and deeds of their Prime Minister shows that he doesn't want one. That's still not the same as it being Israeli Government Policy.

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493878#Comment_121493878

I'm certainly not a supporter of this Israeli Government. I'm not a supporter of the Government of Gaza either. There is a mechanism to change the government of Israel through political means and a likelihood that such a change will happen. There's no realistic possibility of that happening in Gaza.

Tell me how · 14-12-2023 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493444#Comment_121493444

Are you suggesting the Israeli Ambassador to the UK is speaking contrary to Israeli policy?

If that was the case, I'm sure you'll be able to show a link to the Israeli government calling her in to line or her retracting her statement.

Cordell · 14-12-2023 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493842#Comment_121493842

Journalist's opinions are just as valid as mine, award wining or not. It is not a genocide.

Tell me how · 14-12-2023 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493439#Comment_121493439

You've failed to acknowledge that the civilian deaths are a direct result of both Israeli and Hamas engaging in heated street fighting.

BS. Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza than twice the power of what was dropped on Hiroshima. That's how the vast majority of civilians have died.

You've failed to acknowledge that Hamas and their attack in October enjoy support from a significant proportion of the people of Gaza, probably a majority.

On what basis do you claim this? Elections from 17 years ago in a place where the average age is 18? That aside, at this point, are you really suggesting that an indigenous population would look past the genocidal country blowing the sh*t out of them to blame a group made up of their own people, irrespective of their acts? That would be like saying that if the UK had bombed Ireland because of the Warrington Bombs that you'd expect the Irish people being hit by those bombs to support the UK.

You keep saying that all Israeli's are culpable for the actions of the Government of Israel but don't accept that the same applies to the government and people of Gaza. How do you square that?

Show me where I've said all Israeli's are culpable as a matter of course. I've blamed the government, the individual leaders, and those who support them. And I stand by that.

Tell me how · 14-12-2023 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493726#Comment_121493726

This is it, the Israeli PM at the UN showed a map with Palestine litterally removed from it. The same PM who has instructed the army to invoke malakek in its actions on Gaza, the same PM who has emboldened Hamas because he said it would help prevent a 2 state solution being pursued, the same PM who has had several members of his cabinet literally calling for the destruction of Gaza.

Oxford dictionary - Genocide.

'the murder of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group, with the aim of destroying that nation or group.'

And still some say, 'Yeah, but it's not genocide'.

Danzy · 14-12-2023 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493772#Comment_121493772

Exactly so it puts to bed the nonsense about Israel being an apartheid state.

jmreire · 14-12-2023 12:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493672#Comment_121493672

Annd9, I am speaking about one people, Palestinians who in the past when allowed in large numbers into neighboring country's caused major problems for the concerned governments, this is a matter of historical fact. And in my opinion, is at least one of the reasons that the A/M countries are now reluctant to accept them back. Maybe I'm wrong, but why, in your opinion, is this the case? Why are there no open doors for the Palestinian people amongst their Muslim Neighbours? Just bear in mind one thing, I'm speaking about the here and now situation, concerning Israel and Palestine / Hamas. But if you want to, feel free to talk about the example(s) you mention.

Anyway, here goes:-

(A) Yes, Jordan fought a war with the Palestinians. The conflict is known as the Black September and took place between September 1970 and July 1971 1. The war was fought between the Jordanian Armed Forces and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) 1. The PLO was headquartered in Jordan and had been using the country as a base for its operations against Israel 1. The conflict began when the PLO attempted to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy, which led to a violent clash between the two sides 1. The Jordanian army eventually emerged victorious, and the PLO was expelled from the country.

(B) There have been conflicts between the Palestinian refugees and the Egyptian government. According to an article by the Associated Press, both Jordan and Egypt have refused to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza and the West Bank. The article states that the two countries have multiple reasons for rejecting the idea, including fear that Israel wants to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into their countries and nullify Palestinian demands for statehood. Additionally, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi has warned that a mass exodus of Palestinians into Egypt could risk bringing militants into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, from where they might launch attacks on Israel, endangering the two countries’ 40-year-old peace treaty 1.

(C) Lebanon. Google the War in Lebanon, and the part the PLO played in it.

Snooker Loopy · 14-12-2023 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494048#Comment_121494048

Israel occupies Palestine and pens Palestinians into small pieces of land that it ultimately controls, these Palestinians have feck all rights and are treated far differently to Israelis. That is apartheid.

Apartheid South Africa began in 1948, the same year the state of Israel was created. But apartheid South Africa was only in the hapenny place compared to Israel's carry on since 1948.

21,000 people were killed by political violence in the entire history of apartheid South Africa. Within days, if it is not there already, that 21,000 total will be surpassed in Gaza alone just since October 7th this year.

Strazdas · 14-12-2023 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493292#Comment_121493292

Not sure how even hardline Israel defenders can stand over this. They're giving a big 'F*** You' to the international community and the international order, saying they will do whatever they like and to hell with the consequences. That is not the way any supposed 'western liberal democracy' behaves.

brickster69 · 14-12-2023 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493842#Comment_121493842

The important one is the recommendation from the ICJ last month where it calls on states to act under it's obligations and invoke the Genocide convention of which Israel and the US are signatories. This is the brick wall that Israel and it's backers are hurtling toward if the next couple of options at the UN fail. Just a shame that the legal route is being held up as it is going to result in many more deaths in the meantime.

https://www.icj.org/gaza-occupied-palestinian-territory-states-have-a-duty-to-prevent-genocide/

Tell me how · 14-12-2023 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494048#Comment_121494048

Link

Apartheid is also a crime against humanity, as set out both in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. It consists of three primary elements:

1 - An intent to maintain domination by one racial group over another;

2 - A context of systematic oppression by the dominant group over the marginalized group;

3 - Inhumane acts such as “forcible transfer” and “expropriation of landed property.”

Israel's effective occupation of Gaza and the Palestinian people would deem it an Apartheid state with respect to points 1 and 2. It's act of settler expansion would deem it such with respect to point 3.

Ban Ki Moon and Mary Robinson said it is in effect carrying out apartheid. Amnesty International has said the same. The former northern commander of the Israeli army has said that its actions with respect to the West Bank (not Gaza mind) are an act of total apartheid.

So please, given these testimonies, and with the constituent parts of apartheid listed above, please tell us how it is 'nonsense' to suggest what these people are saying.

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493954#Comment_121493954

No, I'm asking the question; does she set Israeli government policy. Care to answer that question?

Snooker Loopy · 14-12-2023 12:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494095#Comment_121494095

The cruelty is the point. It's like a giant Milgram experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures were a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, 40 men in the age range of 20 to 50 from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.[2]

The experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of subjects would fully obey the instructions, with every participant going up to 300 volts, and 65% going up to the full 450 volts. Milgram first described his research in a 1963 article in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology[1] and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.[3]

The experiments began on August 7, 1961 (after a grant proposal was approved in July), in the basement of Linsly-Chittenden Hall at Yale University, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem.[4][5] Milgram devised his psychological study to explain the psychology of genocide and answer the popular contemporary question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"[6]

While the experiment itself was repeated many times around the globe, with fairly consistent results, both its interpretations as well as its applicability to the Holocaust are disputed.[7][8]

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494009#Comment_121494009

"BS. Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza than twice the power of what was dropped on Hiroshima. That's how the vast majority of civilians have died."

Those are two different things. This war was started by Hamas on 7th of October. Israel's reaction to that war is, in my opinion, grossly disproportionate, but that doesn't mean that Hamas isn't culpable for the deaths in a war in Gaza that they choose to fight.

"On what basis do you claim this?"

The polls that have been taken, the response of the crowd who were just delighted to engage in the mutilation of the dead German-Israeli rape victim and the universally supportive response in the media from Palestinian Arabs within Gaza since the 7th of October attacks.

"Show me where I've said all Israeli's are culpable as a matter of course. I've blamed the government, the individual leaders, and those who support them. And I stand by that."

You keep saying "Israel" rather than the "Israeli Government". Israel is all of the people of the country.

brickster69 · 14-12-2023 1:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494095#Comment_121494095

Ireland made a very wise choice taking the stand it did from early on. It was not a difficult choice but took a fair bit of courage.

Tell me how · 14-12-2023 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494183#Comment_121494183

Those are two different things. This war was started by Hamas on 7th of October. Israel's reaction to that war is, in my opinion, grossly disproportionate, but that doesn't mean that Hamas isn't culpable for the deaths in a war in Gaza that they choose to fight.

That's a different argument than your original point.

You keep saying "Israel" rather than the "Israeli Government". Israel is all of the people of the country.

Israel is the country for FFS, I'd refer to Israeli's if I was implying the people.

Igotadose · 14-12-2023 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492184#Comment_121492184

Debunked a couple times in this thread already. They weren't sterilized. You do know the difference between contraception and sterilization, correct?

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493871#Comment_121493871

Are ad hominin attacks all you can offer?

I've no idea where the Steve Bannon reference comes from. You have shown a serious lack of historical knowledge and a notable inability to understand context or grasp the notion that it is possible to question absolutist rhetoric without holding contrarian absolutist views.

You're proposition that pretty much all supporters of Israel are historically ignorant shows a level of bigotry that you should really reflect on. The false dichotomy that the only alternative is that I get off on genocide is let another false proposition. You are attempting to fill the considerable void in your own knowledge and what I can only describe as your considerable intellectual limitations with hyperbole and quite nasty accusations. Again, something for you to reflect on.

I work on the assumption that people can be equally ethical and decent while holding opposing views. That proposition is necessary for liberal democracy to operate. The USA has, in recent years, moved away from that idea and it hasn't served them well.

Snooker Loopy · 14-12-2023 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494254#Comment_121494254

You made an ad hominem attack on me.

Your position is morally bankrupt and your posts are thinly veiled apologism for genocide.

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494126#Comment_121494126

If Gaza was a part of Israel and the Israeli Government imposed those restrictions selectively on the Arab population of Gaza then yes, Israel would be an apartheid State but as Gaza is a semi-autonomous State then it is not an accurate description. That's not to say that the population of Gaza aren't treated appallingly by Israel, but while Apartheid State is in many ways apt it is not accurate.

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494285#Comment_121494285

What, in your view, is my position?

quokula · 14-12-2023 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494137#Comment_121494137

She doesn't make Israeli policy but she states it. She doesn't go rogue and make things up that are against government policy. Nobody from the government has come out and corrected her. You even stated yourself that you know that this matches the intentions of the government including the prime minister.

So when the contents of the governing parties charter, the obvious intent of the members of that government, the statements they've made at the UN, the statements made by their ambassador, and the actual actions they're carrying out all line up with this being government policy, why are you trying to nitpick and wordsmith your way to find some technicality under which you can argue?

The mental gymnastics from Israel's supporters is really hard to follow at times.

Snooker Loopy · 14-12-2023 1:21pm

Just in case anybody missed it the current chief rabbi of the IDF believes in the rape of non-Jews for moral and fitness purposes. "The most moral army in the world", lol.

Could you imagine it. "I've decided to get properly fit for the new football season, Moshe, so I'm going out to rape a few women..."

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-4827240%2C00.html

The rabbi gave a more shocking answer on the same site when asked if soldiers were permitted to rape women during war. Karim replied that, as part of maintaining fitness for the army and the soldiers' morale during fighting, it is permitted to "breach" the walls of modesty and "satisfy the evil inclination by lying with attractive Gentile women against their will, out of consideration for the difficulties faced by the soldiers and for overall success."

Strazdas · 14-12-2023 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493444#Comment_121493444

If she went against Israeli policy, that would be a massive clanger - almost a sackable offence. As an ambassador and diplomat, she is supposed to represent the accurate position of the Israeli state at all times, not give her own interpretation or even her own personal opinions.

Igotadose · 14-12-2023 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493037#Comment_121493037

"The Nazis saw the Jews as a "threat" for the same reason the far right in this country see immigrants and non-white people as a threat - ie. no good reason at all. Because they were irredeemably racist and fascist and because fascists require an out group to mendaciously paint as a criminal threat through lying propaganda in order to focus all energy of "the glorious nation" towards this fake threat."

The Nazis had prosaic reasons, too. They were after Jewish resources, including money and lately, famously, artworks, to finance their plans for conquering Europe. Germany was primed for this due to generations of antisemitic philosophy, and it's easy to scapegoat a minority.

Plenty of Palestinians, pre-WWII, sold land to Israeli settlers. Plenty became Israel citizens, too. Every attempt at peace with Palestinians is met with rejection and violence, though sometimes there are small successes like the eventual Oslo accords. Funny how the Palestinians never come forward with a peace proposal. Just violence.

Ulixes · 14-12-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494295#Comment_121494295

Her words were presented as proof of Israeli government policy. I questioned that.

Why do you conclude that asking such a question makes me a supporter of Israel?

For the record I am a supporter of Israel but I don't support their actions in Gaza or the West Bank and I'm strongly opposed to the current Israeli Government.

I'm also a supporter of a Palestinian Arab State but I am strongly opposed to the current Gazan government, their attacks on Israel and their military campaign against the Israeli armed forces.

Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

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