Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

aloooof · 15-12-2023 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498641#Comment_121498641

Do Munster still sell the 10 year tickets in one felled swoop?

Open to correction, but as far as I'm aware, yes they do. It's worth mentioning, it also includes corporate multi-year deals, which we have no idea of the schedule for renewal. But it's not unreasonable to suggest it's in some ways linked to this.

15-12-2023 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498687#Comment_121498687

There is still a knock on negative impact for Munster in the fact that 50% of all this revenue is pledged to debt servicing over the coming years. Effectively it's money that isn't available to pay players, pay development officers, invest in capex etc.

There is absolutely no way to spin all of this but to accept that Munster are in a significantly worse financial position than the other provinces.

Some of that is just misfortune - the timing of the Thomond redevelopment etc, but some of it was also mismanagement historically. They might be doing the right thing now to try and grow their revenue streams to get out from the hole they're in, but you could 100% ask why it took so long for them to look at ways to grow their income?

YTM · 15-12-2023 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497756#Comment_121497756

Knowing Munsters luck he'll stay injury free and playing the best rugby of his life after leaving.

Munster: Shane Daly; Calvin Nash, Antoine Frisch, Alex Nankivell, Seán O’Brien; Jack Crowley, Craig Casey; Jeremy Loughman, Diarmuid Barron, Stephen Archer; Gavin Coombes, Tadhg Beirne (C); Tom Ahern, John Hodnett, Jack O’Donoghue.

Replacements: Eoghan Clarke, Josh Wycherley, Oli Jager, Brian Gleeson, Alex Kendellen, Conor Murray, Rory Scannell, Ben O’Connor.

Great to have Daly and Frisch back in the backline but still no POM and Edogbo is a worry

aloooof · 15-12-2023 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498709#Comment_121498709

There is still a knock on negative impact for Munster in the fact that 50% of all this revenue is pledged to debt servicing over the coming years. Effectively it's money that isn't available to pay players, pay development officers, invest in capex etc.

You're basically just describing what debt is here tho. You could also argue that other provinces have to rent their grounds each year, which is money that isn't available to pay players etc.

With regards investing in capital expenditure, that's exactly what the re-development of Thomond was. We still have debt on it, but it's an asset worth many multiples more.

Some of that is just misfortune - the timing of the Thomond redevelopment etc, but some of it was also mismanagement historically. They might be doing the right thing now to try and grow their revenue streams to get out from the hole they're in, but you could 100% ask why it took so long for them to look at ways to grow their income?

This is all fine, and I agree, but your initial point was about Munster's finances "of late". That's the thing I took issue with from the outset.

aloooof · 15-12-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498713#Comment_121498713

Backline looks a significant upgrade on last week. Coombes in the 2nd row tho? We've rotten luck with lock injuries. And I don't think JOD has started at 8 for us in a fair while.

Akrasia · 15-12-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498617#Comment_121498617

You have no evidence to 'suggest' that at all.

The IRFU loaning money to itself to finance an asset that it owns, which it will use to generate revenue in the future is not evidence that Munster are "in considerably more financial difficulty' than the other provinces.

There is absolutely no indication that Munster are in any financial difficulty at all. Both the stadiums are being used to generate revenue and Munster are expanding high performance facilities out to the regions in order to invest in the future pipeline and develop regional clubs and players. None of that indicates a province 'in considerable financial difficulty'

phog · 15-12-2023 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498713#Comment_121498713

All the new posts, I thought there was something really important announced about the team, no, it's almost like before.

We have Barron back too, another plus.

YTM · 15-12-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498760#Comment_121498760

Yeah Wycherley picked up an knock in training so he's missing too.

15-12-2023 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498733#Comment_121498733

Yeah, and the "of late" comment was utterly fair as well.

The increase in indebtedness of over €4m was in the most recent financial year. It's absolutely fair to say that their financial position has worsened of late, even if they now appear to be more proactive in the ways they attempt to service it.

It's a fair comment on some of the other provinces needing to rent, but Munster are still the only province who owe the IRFU €10.75m.

Neil3030 · 15-12-2023 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498713#Comment_121498713

Three locks out is just cruel at this stage. Coombes can do a job there but I'd be happy to come away with a LBP to be honest.

aloooof · 15-12-2023 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498785#Comment_121498785

Thought he was fairly poor last week, but would still have expected him to be involved this week if fit, so that's a shame. I make it Kleyn, Snyman, Edogbo, Wycherly all out?

It is interesting tho with Ahern at 6 (which has been a brilliant move). Goes some way to the different roles in the team, and Coombes is more suited to the lock type job that Kleyn etc. fulfil.

15-12-2023 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498763#Comment_121498763

The IRFU advanced money to Ulster Rugby as well to fund the redevelopment of a stadium, but they were able to honour their commitments and service the debt.

Munster weren't and required a bailout effectively back in 2017, and now it would appear required another one in 2022.

Also worth noting here that almost 40% of the €10.75m doesn't relate to the Thomond debt.

When you say I have nothing to support a contention that Munster are in financial difficulty - I'd like to point out that I'm referring to the actual financial accounts here. It's a verifiable fact that Munster have a considerable debt to the IRFU, something the other provinces don't have.

nerd69 · 15-12-2023 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498793#Comment_121498793

If their getting 1% loans off of the irfu (which is all the one anyway because the irfu own them so will never foreclose) then running on that debt makes perfect sense particularly if it means they own assets due to it.

nerd69 · 15-12-2023 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498796#Comment_121498796

We should be winning this i think. Coombes has been playing a thl type role this season anyway so this could well suit him.

15-12-2023 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498805#Comment_121498805

Yeah, they're clearly really committing to the Ahern at 6 thing, because the easy thing to do would be to start him in the row, JOD at 6 and then Coombes at 8.

15-12-2023 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498823#Comment_121498823

They got their interest rate reduced to a 1% level as part of the restructuring because it was essentially all they could afford.

There is no suggestion whatsoever that the increase in indebtedness is due to investment in assets, quite the opposite, it clearly states it's for operational costs.

15-12-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498839#Comment_121498839

Munster have been running losses for the last number of years. They are predicting a break even this year.

2016: €1.93m deficit

2017: €900k surplus

2018: €920k deficit

2019: €955k deficit

I can't find figures online for the years after that but I would imagine the €4m operating losses that have been tacked on to the stadium debt is more of a debt consolidation accounting excerise than anything else.

Looking at the above, it goes to show the difference having a home knockout European Cup game can make. Didn't Ulster report a 700k loss last year on the back of the La Rochelle game being moved to Dublin

YTM · 15-12-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498805#Comment_121498805

Yeah Ahern and Beirne are the only fit locks available right now. Not sure if Evan O'Connell is injured or not. Will be interesting to see if the IRFU insist on Beirne getting a break over the Christmas period even with the injuries Munster have in the second row.

Yeah my brother was making a similar point about Coombes style of play when talking about him moving into the second row. Happy though to see Ahern remain at 6. The move is working out brilliant and think he'd have a better chance of getting an international cap(s) playing at 6.

nerd69 · 15-12-2023 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498839#Comment_121498839

I feel like there would be more said for operational cost deficits of 4m if it was that excessive for something specifc to that extent it dosent really add up. The thomond/covid debt makes sense.

Connacht have i believe recieved close to 20 million in grants for the sportsgrounds and leinster are fortunate to live next door to the national stadoum which the irfu paid for. Im not reallt familiar with ulster but i belive they got 5 million pounds or so recently as a grant also

When they struggled to repay it was very heavily publisised if there where real financial difficulties things like the training centers (they recently announced a center of excellence in cork is being built) being developed and signings like jager would be nixed or reduced. That i would think is more telling than percieved language in an irfu report

15-12-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498941#Comment_121498941

The funding recently received is for large scale sports infrastructure. If you do not have a project planned, you are not eligible. They can't turn around and say "you know that €2.7m grant we got, we'll use that to clear the TP debt"

snotboogie · 15-12-2023 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498919#Comment_121498919

Thomond only sold out once last year and only got above 18k attendance 3 times. 1/3 of all tickets sold least season were for games in Cork. Back of the napkin but if there is an average ticket price of 35e, rental costs of 150k and 200k in other expenses, Munster will over gain 1 million from the Crusaders game. That game alone would wipe out the debt each year from 2017 to 2019. PUC will be tough to give up.

It will be interesting to see if Munster can keep plugging the touring sides for ticket sales in PUC, if the All Blacks come in November that would be an obvious next step for the 24/25 season but beyond that it will be challenging to keep selling 40k+ tickets for the same sort of fixtures. The home Ulster game would be the most logical next place to look for 25/26 season and sell that as the first competitive derby game in Cork in 20+ years. Beyond that its hard to predict.

15-12-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499309#Comment_121499309

It would most likely be NZ A. You might get some more of the NZ club sides coming up on pre-season tours. Whoever is brokering the deals seems to have an in with Bristol also. Both Munster & Bristol will have played SAA, Babas and Crusaders within 18 months come February

15-12-2023 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499309#Comment_121499309

I doubt Munster get to keep all the revenue from the game, there is likely to be a flat fee or some sort of ticket revenue sharing agreement with the Crusaders you'd imagine.

nerd69 · 15-12-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498952#Comment_121498952

I never said they should

aloooof · 15-12-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498796#Comment_121498796

I'm leaning that way as well tbh. The home game vs Northamption is suddenly looking like a huge game.

15-12-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499353#Comment_121499353

It's normally a flat fee plus a percentage over a certain amount of ticket sales.

aloooof · 15-12-2023 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498952#Comment_121498952

The funding recently received is for large scale sports infrastructure.

So it is going to be for infrastructure and capex type spend?

aloooof · 15-12-2023 3:28pm

We'll probably make an extra few bob with the museums tours this year anyways, with people coming to see the URC trophy. ;)

15-12-2023 3:30pm

The Exeter team:

15-9,1-8:

Tom Wyatt, Olly Woodburn, Henry Slade, Joe Hawkins, Ben Hammersley, Harvey Skinner, Tom Cairns, Scott Sio, Dan Frost, Ehren Painter, Rusiate Tuima, Dafydd Jenkins, Lewis Pearson, Jacques Vermeulen, Greg Fisilau.

Reps: Max Norey, Nika Abduladze, Marcus Street, Jack Dunne, Ross Vincent, Stuart Townsend, Ollie Devoto, Rory O'Loughlin.

Can't say I know much about some of these guys, but it's two very formidable props, a quality centre pairing, and some highly rated guys like Greg Fisilau in there. No place in the 23 for Eoin O'Connor, he loses out to Jack Dunne on the bench.

15-12-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499427#Comment_121499427

Yep, the funding is for the Cork Centre of Excellence. They were originally awarded €1.5m and were awarded an additional €1.2m a couple of weeks back.

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2023/12/06/additional-e1-2m-grant-for-cork-centre-of-excellence/#post

Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

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