Have we lost our Patriotism?

the "Ireland is full" crowd

Salt of the earth unemployed wasters

We are a soft mark country where it is easy to play the system, and the Government, opposition parties and it seems yourself think everything is fine and dandy.

what aspects of irish culture do you think we'll lose? are you telling me we'll be an islamic state by 2030 or so?

People can become Irish overnight in the same way they can become Doctors, Engineers, Electricians, Nurses, overnight.

As in, they can't.

All of these processes take years to complete. Just because you start the process overnight, it doesn't mean you've completed it. I would have though that this was indeed not a difficult concept.....

Patriotism is pride in your country it’s people, it’s past and doing the very best for it’s future.

For some reason patriotism and nationalism are seen as dirty words in the west, you’ve seen posters equating it with racism yet the same posters will cheer Ukrainian nationalism and nationalism in any non western country. Funnily enough it shows the posters true racism as they apply different standards to different races which is extremely racist.

Absolutely agree.

Here's James conolly talking about patriotism:

"Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for "Ireland," and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, shame and degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland-yea, wrought by Irishmen upon Irish men and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements he is pleased to call Ireland."

This is the kind of patriotism I aspire to. Its not about flags and pledging allegiance like the Americans do every day in school. It's about giving a sh1t about your fellow Irish people, even the ones you might not particularly like.

It really sets out what patriotism is. It's not about hugging the flag, it's about the people.

You see politicians in the US and UK hugging flags or wearing flag lapel pins, while making policy that will help the rich at the expense of the poor. That's the opposite of patriotism and all the flags won't make them patriots.

Patriotism isn't about pretending the country US brilliant and perfect. It's about always trying to improve it.

I heard an Argentinian economist on a podcast who said (in relation to the Argentinian middle class) they're the greatest patriots when it comes to dressing up in the Argentinian colours and loudly supporting their national teams. He said that unfortunately that patriotism does not extend to paying their taxes.

Just to address your last paragraph there. Irish-adopted Ukrainian nationalism of 2021 had a lot of the bad characteristics that we usually associate with nationalism imo.

People (like me) who merely tried to explain that the Russian military was/is not a 'paper tiger' that was going to immediately collapse and be rolled back were shouted down and called Russian agents and traitors (on this site).

Giant blue and yellow flags draped all over Dublin pre-empted independent and individual personal responses to the international situation, I thought.

People who had become very spoilt by having just spent two years supporting an Emergency diktat system and accusing other people of being vectors of disease for any reason or none were in no mood to listen to measured views that didn't totally align with their preconceptions. Because Ukraine is an underdog, Irish liberals felt totally justified in responding with a loud blast of nationalistic emotion.

And remember these are strong and enjoyable emotions that Irish liberals normally do allow themselves to feel - it must have been liberating to take this (officially-approved) black and white view. I believe there is a strong element of this to Irish-adopted Palestinian nationalism also.

No my post isn't a strawman.

I'm making a point of my own that one-step-removed nationalism - what George Orwell called "transferable nationalism" - can bring out the bad sides in people who don't think of themselves as nationalistic, even when they are. They oftentimes are engaged in subtle self-deception. They have selected a country or a cause (Black nationalism in America*) that they think is unimpeachable and so forget themselves in the melee of full-throated support.

The paranoid style of accusing every second poster of being a "Putinbot" just for having a different opinion on one or another aspect of the Ukraine situation was well out of order.

*What gets called a "good cause" but BLM also engaged in rioting and arson, so not peaceable.

You're not a newreg. No. I don't stalk people's profiles. For someone with a small postcount, you seem very au fait with all the usual trope argumebts. You also did a quick turnaround to join the open/no borders gang, which leads me to believe your first post wasn't quite sincerely heartfelt.

A country which doesn't value its borders or its citizenship isn't a country which deserves any respect or patriotism.

Ask the Ukrainians...

As I posted above: Ireland 2023.

That's all folks.

I agree there's a reason the Dublin riots were carried out by poor people. As you point out, they're the ones in competition with lots of the immigrants for both housing and jobs (and social status, which i dont think the middle classes understand).

I'm fine with immigration. But I'm not priced out of the market by them, so its not the same. A poor person who feels shafted out of jobs and a decent life by their wages not keeping up with house prices, might see me as lacking patriotism because I don't oppose immigration.

I was anti-brexit while living in England during the 2016 referendum and I argued that people like us discount the impact of immigration on wages for low skilled jobs (hate that phrase). But my friends wouldn't have it. They said there were studies that showed immigration didn't drive down wages. Unless the rules of supply and demand have been suspended, that had to be BS. Low wages dont get you a house these days and they used to get you a house in the past. My OH's grandad was the sole earner, had a low wage, low status job and they had a council house, 10 children and they eventually bought the house so they had some wealth. None of that could happen today.

When the riot happened, I thought to myself "why are they so angry?". And the answer is obvious. They feel they gave been shafted out of a decent life in this Ireland which I'm so proud of because I'm doing fine.

When some within the Northern Ireland civil rights movement turned violent, I understood it was because there was a genuine, chronic injustice in the system. When the Gazans commit atrocities I understand the same. Doesn't excuse violence, it just explains it. So how do I explain that only poor people from sh1tty neighbourhoods were involved in the Dublin riots?

One explanation is they feel shafted out of what they feel was coming to them. They might have come from poor stock but their parents and grandparents could work and earn enough wages to have a family without being called leeches by the middle classes for simply having children.

I think it's our patriotic duty to at least find out what caused those fellow Irish citizens to turn violent. Even if the answers offend my middle class sensibilities.

Thanks

I agree but I wonder if they have voiced their concerns through the politicians they elect and the middle classes haven't listened. For example, People Before Profit candidates have more success in poor areas. They aren't taken particularly seriously. Previously they voted SF and they weren't taken particularly seriously either (until the last election).

Maybe they have voiced their concerns in a way, and we just haven't listened. They sure as shyte don't have a Jim Larkin or James Conolly to vioce their concerns. But if they did have voices like that, they wouldn't tell the middle class and wealthy things they want to hear so I wonder of we'd listen even of they did.

Take education for example. In the past a leaving cert was good and a degree was a nice extra that suggested a life of success. Now a leaving cert is nothing and a degree is little better. Still takes a lot of family encouragement and support and time to get a get, but doesn't mean you'll ever be able to buy a house or have a family without being considered a leech by the middle class.

Since there has been such education inflation, I think we should see massively disproportionate funding for schools in poor areas to get those children up to (and maybe even beyond) educational success of the wealthy areas.

Wages are a serious concern too. What's the point of being a wealthy country if peoppe who do a weeks work still need government assistance to have a house and raise a family and be consider a leech? Where's the pride in that? I have pride in my work like because it allows my family to live well and do nice things. Would I be so proud if I worked as hard, couldn't live well and was called a leech because I still needed government assistance? I don't think so.

If we had a less unequal society, we wouldn't have riots whipped up over immigration or anything else.

Romantic Ireland is dead and gone, it’s with O’Leary in the grave….