Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Reminds me of the incident where a few Israelis ran out with their assault rifles in response to some kind of threat and was shot (I think by a soldier) because the soldier assumed it was a Palestinian so he could get away with it.

They tried to cover it up anyway but the body was later exhumed and an autopsy proved the soldier shot him. Was in the news yesterday or the day before.

Not to be making light of a serious situation, but it reminded me of an episode of South Park

Not even remotely a surprise that the IDF would be trigger happy creeps. If they're able to kill their own people so easily, they must be taking even less care with Gazans - they must be one of the worst and most unprofessional armies in the world (strongly rumoured they killed dozens of Israelis on October 7th).

Zero principles of distinction being applied. Which has been pointed out previously except this time they have now killed their own.

Right, and it's going to be whitewashed of any potential war crimes just like the allies are whitewashed in today's history. This always tend to happen for the winners, especially when they are the ones with a good cause.

Sorry, hard to go back through so many posts here. I recall you and others debated the point about "the Jews being held to a different standard". Could you remind me what you posted in regards to this?

Speaking for myself, possibly others, I think anyone viewing these events who has any notion of humanity in them would see that this is just plain wrong. I think any belligerant who is responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and reducing their homes, workplaces, hospitals, places of worship etc. to rubble, starving them, denying them medical supplies and terrorising them has crossed the line of unacceptability of plain simple humanity.

The attacks of October 7th equally crossed that line of unacceptability. But that does not give anyone the right to act disproportionately in their response. And in my opinion, there is nothing "absurd" in calling out Israel on what the IDF is doing.

I find the words "da Joos" that you used in your post quite offensive.

They are well trained soldiers. Mistaken, probably. Incompetent, no.

The use of small arms fire wouldn't normally lead to "genocide" and individual foot soldiers would not normally be classed as "genocidal". That would be the State. With significant quantities of bombs and heavy weaponry and shells.

You seem to be suggesting that Israel is incompetent and not genocidal? And it has little/no control over the army it has? And has been training for many decades? Or am I reading too much into your words?

First of all, I reject utterly the claim that Israel is "genocidal." They're in a war where lots of people want them dead, in my view they're justified in taking a total war stance. I was responding to tales of IDF soldiers killing their own troops, Israeli hostages etc. that sounds like at least some in the IDF aren't entirely sure what they are doing. I'd also have to question Israel's government and intelligence services if they legitimately had no idea the 7th of October attacks were about to happen.

I really don't see that the IDF is going after legitimate military targets with the bulk of the dead Gazans being women and children. I can't vouch for the men but I doubt all of them are Hamas combatants. I don't agree that Hamas has turned Gaza into a "giant terrorist military base" and Israel doesn't believe that either.

I think you are making excuses for the what the Israelis are doing by starting tour premise with "All throughout history..."

Did you "give a s***e" about the people killed in the Allied bombings of cities in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? Or just Gaza?

The killing of 3 hostages by the IDF raises a number of questions

*Had the hostages escaped from their captors? If so, how? Were their captors killed by the IDF? Were the hostages walking towards the IDF forces?

*Were the hostages allowed to escape? If so, why? Were there other hostages in the vicinity

*Presumably the hostages weren't armed and they were dressed like civilians. In that case, is it the policy of the IDF to kill unarmed civilians that approach them? Did the IDF think that they might be a victim of a suicide bomb? How close did the hostages get to the IDF?

Ref the three hostages mistakenly killed - I wonder what the reaction will be from the families of all the hostages - those that were freed, those that are dead and those that are still captive - will be...

The Allied bombings went far beyond the controversial episodes in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Way beyond that. In later stages, carpet bombing of German, Japanese and occupied cities was a nightly routine extensively covering both countries. My point is that nobody considers, for example Operation Meetinghouse as being particularly controversial, even though civilian deaths and suffering were enormous. The reason was simple - it was war.

Israel seems like it's being held to a different standard, despite the fact that they've been under attack constantly since 1947 and are seeking a decisive outcome against a mortal enemy. My question is why? Why was basically every other belligerent in history was allowed to do whatever they had to, but Israel is expected to co-exist with mortal enemies?

I think know what you're getting at - I agree that there were many atrocities in WWII - and the countless other wars before and after. Man's inhumanity to man.

But I don't get the standard bit. I don't think you can directly compare what is happening in 2023 to anything that happened in the 1940s. Today, Israel has a well equipment military - accurate weapons systems, accurate delivery systems, good intelligence etc. In WWII, a fair few of the bombers directed to bomb Dresden actually bombed Prague. I would expect an army today to a lot better than that.

So perhaps Israel is being held to a different standard - because these are different times.

I have no difficulty in holding the two views at the same time - that things that happened in WWII were beyond cruel and that things happening in Gaza are also beyond cruel and should stop.

Why do you just blindly parrot guff that the likes of that evil bitch Ambassador to the UK come out with? Why stop at 80 years ago? Why not go back to the Mongols FFS to set the standard for the Israelis of today. I mean, why should the IDF care about Human rights when nobody on this site was protesting Genghis Khan or has included a statement condemning him before first criticising Israel. Such a glaring omission clearly makes any attempted condemnation invalid.

But your arguments are always asymmetric and only ever one-sided. You will no doubt resile from those arguments if they were applied to what you consider the "other side".

Hamas could consider themselves at war with Israel since their inception. With legitimate reason. Tens of thousands of Palestinians being held hostage in Israeli facilities (aka detention without charge or trial). Over a decade of sanctions keeping the Palestinian economy in a perpetual state of bare subsistence and a large part of the Palestinian population being held in an open air prison. The portion that are not in an open air prison are not kept behind fences simply for the reason that the absence of fences makes it easier for settlers from the US etc to come and conduct raids on them and their properties and later steal that property.

So, given Hamas were at war with Israel prior to Oct 7th, and given that wars in the past involved raids where people were murdered, maybe even raped, and taken hostage, you are logically then ok with the events of October 7th.

Or are you a complete hypocrite?

BTW, you may think the IDF and Israelis are your friend. The sad thing is that if you visited the West Bank or Gaza, or even a border somewhere with Israel, you would be far more likely to be summarily executed or killed on sight by the IDF than any other group in the area. And without any compunction whatsoever.

It's quite simple. After blockading the territory for over a decade, the Israelis have more recently invaded it and sealed off it's borders and left the population without food or water.

You'll find people on here trying to say that that is wrong. That Israel should not be starving the Gazan population. But those people on here are hypocrites. And their criticism is wholly invalidated as it is purely driven by antisemitism. What is the proof for this? - Well it is obvious. They never - and I repeat, never - start off by condemning the Moroccans for their 26 year long siege of the Spanish enclave of Ceuta from 1694-1727.

So not a word about the Moroccans, but they want the IDF to be held to higher standards. It's just antisemitism. It's all fine for the Moroccans to do it but as soon as the Israeli's do it, the hypocrites have a problem with it. Coincidence or wha?