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General Irish politics discussion thread

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    #2852
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516205#Comment_121516205

    No.



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    #2853
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516196#Comment_121516196

    But why single them out. I spent many years in school and then in university (not medical)? Should I have been made spend 5 years repaying my debt (despite me having paid quite a bit in taxes over the years since)?

    Plus, many graduates move to Ireland: should we then repay their homeland if they stay five years here?

    Anyhow, maybe it's a discussion more suited to its own thread.



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    #2854
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516196#Comment_121516196

    Forcing doctors to stay in Ireland isn't going to solve the shortage - not least because you would just have a glut of disaffected junior doctors.

    Focusing on their employment conditions and making them want to stay in Ireland is, as with every industry, the far more beneficial long term strategy.



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    #2855
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516215#Comment_121516215

    Well it's linked in with immigration matters.

    We're recruiting abroad from doctors when our own well educated doctors are getting a free education and then going off abroad to make a fortune from it.

    It does seem a bit odd.



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    #2856
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516218#Comment_121516218

    I'm not saying they should be forced.

    They can still move abroad but they would be expected to pay for their education.

    The salary they get in Dubai or Sydney will surely cover the costs.

    It's a strict incentive to keep them working here but they are not being forced.



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    #2857
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,442 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It is quite usual for professions to move abroad to further their skills. Many return and then contribute in a major way to progress in their chosen field. Yes, a quicker turn around in asylum applications would be a big help and the 50% who fail get deported.



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    #2858
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516142#Comment_121516142

    Mostly, they leave the country.

    If you are going to be deported, you are better off to leave voluntarily because then you don't have a big black "Deported!!!" mark in your record that will cause you endless grief for years to come trying to get into other countries. And governments also prefer you to leave voluntarily than to be deported, since deportation is difficult to arrange (Do you imagine other countries are queuing up to receive deported people? If you do, you delude yourself.) and very expensive to implement.

    So not just Ireland, but most countries, will give people who are earmarked for deportation an opportunity to leave ahead of being deported, and huge numbers of them take that opportunity. Those that don't are mostly people who are unable to be admitted to other countries and those people, of course, are very difficult to deport.



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    #2859
    Itineoman
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Itineoman



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516224#Comment_121516224

    Where is this free education available? Throwaway remarks like this annoy me. My daughter is paying 60k for her college fees to become a doctor in this country and would be typical of most of her class group. That’s on top of her four year undergraduate science degree. She will likely move abroad for a few years to increase her qualifications to allow her to practise in a particular field - probably to Australia - and will return to make her life here once she has got the appropriate specialisation. All graduate doctors need to do two or three years to become qualified as a GP or in another area of specialism where they can contribute. I would think she is justified in going wherever the hell she wants to use her qualifications and make money. The bank won’t be writing off the loan anytime soon. So what part of this has her getting a free education and going off to make a fortune?

    Post edited by Itineoman on


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    #2860
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    3,000 people queued for supermarket vouchers this morning in Smithfield, up 20% on last year.



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    #2861
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,902 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Word gets around. I wonder what the percentage of those in genuine need is.

    The Dublin Airport cap is damaging the economy of Ireland as a whole, and must be scrapped forthwith.



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    #2862
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517478#Comment_121517478


    Inflation has been outpacing wages in many low paid jobs for years. Not everyone who seeks help is a grifter.

    Given that the number of homeless people on the streets has expanded in the last few years it's not a surprise that the numbers who are a rung or two above that on the socio-economic ladder are also swelling. I was talking to the cleaner in work one evening and she told me that she can't afford to turn on the heating at night. She just gets under the mattress with a hot water bottle in order to keep war on cold evenings.

    There's quite a lot of poverty in this country. It may not be the blatant "going to school barefoot" type that our grandparents would have seen but it's there nonetheless.



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    #2863
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It is more expensive being poor than being wealthy.

    Poor people cannot always benefit from supermarket 'special deals' because their corner shop is not a supermarket and does not have any special deals. Particularly if they do not have access to travel provided by a car or the like.

    Also special deals are very limited, and only cover a few perishable products.

    Poor people do not have the spare cash to stockpile on these short-term items, nor can afford to store them.

    Being poor is not nice.



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    #2864
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517660#Comment_121517660

    Indeed - The oft quoted Terry Pratchett piece from one of his books is a very clear and simple explanation of the compounding problem of poverty.

    “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.


    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.


    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”



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    #2865
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Fierce stuff from another Fianna Fail councillor in Cork

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41293954.html

    Comparing those who house refugees with Famine landlords.

    Is Fianna Fail courting the far right?



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    #2866
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518095#Comment_121518095

    I think that MM and FF are trying to show that the Far Right are Far Wrong.



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    #2867
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Call my a cynic but I find it very interesting that all of these councilors are coming out with these public statements just 5 months before the local elections. I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

    On an entirely unrelated matter, I wonder are they aware that Cork North-Central TD, Noel Flynn called asylum seekers "spongers, freeloaders and conmen" before the 2002 general election. He had won the fifth and final seat at the previous election in 1997. In 2002 he topped the poll.



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    #2868
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,638 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516215#Comment_121516215

    But why single them out.

    I guess if an Arts student goes abroad it doesn't effect society nearly as much as when a nurse goes abroad.

    I would agree with the premise.

    We spend a fortune on educating people right from primary school up to 3rd level, and then they head away for greener pastures.

    For certain core roles for the betterment of society, I would employ a carrot and stick.

    The Stick: After graduation, you have to work in the state for X years before going abroad

    The Carrort: Double or Triple their Income Tax credits



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    #2869
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,638 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121516623#Comment_121516623

    Mostly, they leave the country.

    Afaik, we have no idea about the data here as we don't track them.



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    #2870
    retalivity
    Registered Users Posts: 14,299 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517478#Comment_121517478

    Indeed. Is that the capuchin brothers thing? I passed that last year, 80% of the ppl queuing are the usual wasters, decked out in full northface/ balenciaga/pyjamas, chain smoking 20 jp blue and whinging about having to wait.



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    #2871
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518526#Comment_121518526

    You're making assumptions on that. My father was an arts student (geography) and left Ireland in the 60's. He continued his post-grad education in Canada and eventually (back in Ireland) became a professor.

    In short the whole idea is fairly daft because it looks to claw back money from some in society who will eventually contribute far more than many other members of our society.

    We as a society spend a fortune on many things and don't look to claw the funds back. To look at placing a financial or time-based burden on those looking to further their education is not something that will reap many benefits.

    On the flip side, how many nurses leave the country after their training and why do they leave? Is the best approach to "fixing" this to force them to work or repay teir fees rather than doing something that would encourage them to want to work here?


    Anyhow, I did say this topic would be better off in its own thread.



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    #2872
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,638 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518611#Comment_121518611

    It's daft that one just has a narrow mindset and dismisses the idea straight off the bat.

    Like it or not, there are some jobs and roles in Ireland that we as a society value more than others.

    If Ireland had a shortage of Geography Professors it won't matter a damm.

    If Ireland had (and does have) a shortage of nurses or doctors or other qualified health care professionals, it does matter.


    The HSE spends millions on trying to recruit personnel from abroad. It is a classic case of one arm of the state doing one thing and another arm of the state doing something else.



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    #2873
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Not so many years ago, a nurse or teacher could not get a permanent position is Ireland. Now because of that they all left for jobs abroad as they had no chance of one here.

    Now we cannot get them to come back. I wonder why?



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    #2874
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,276 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    To all the people moaning about doctors and nurses being made to stay here after they graduate, where are they supposed to live whilst being paid peanuts??



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    #2875
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Rather than try and hold young doctors here against their will it might be better to ask why it is that they're leaving in droves. And no, it's not all about the money and the weather.



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    #2876
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There are lots of nurses here in Sydney, as everyone knows. Most of them are in Sydney for a certain period of time to enjoy life on the other side of the world and save up where possible (Sydney is quite an expensive city but the tradeoff for not saving is that in a couple of years there you get lots of experiences in a bustling world city). Many of them then go and work contracts in rural areas to get extra pay and increase their savings before heading home (or alternatively working extra hours while living rather frugally).

    When I heard Leo extol the virtues of how diverse the health service is recently, I found it remarkable that this was something to boast about in the context that twenty something old healthcare workers clearly believe that the only path to home ownership is to move to the other side of the world for a lengthy period of time and save up money, and one of the primary reasons for the diversity in the health service is the requirement to recruit staff from parts of Asia due to the difficulty in recruiting at home as so many eligible workers are abroad as above.

    You can apply all of the above to teachers who relocate to the Middle East and South East Asia, and construction workers all over the world.

    I'm not saying the only reason they head abroad is working conditions and pay at home, it's wonderful to have the opportunity to travel, but a certain element of the travelling is the requirement to spend some portion of their time abroad saving intensely because going to the third country is the only opportunity to save enough money to make a meaningful contribution towards home ownership.

    Given that the Government can't currently burn through corporation tax windfalls fast enough, this is something that doesn't nearly get discussed enough.

    You could also throw on top of this the amount of people in this country with large volumes of savings parked in deposit accounts earning effectively losing money to inflation as the country has a demented, archaic taxation system on passive investments. It'd be nice if some of that money could be parked in something useful like a low risk ETF rather than where it is now.



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    #2877
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518813#Comment_121518813

    Wasn't there a survey a few years ago that showed it was 'working conditions' that was the main driver of them leaving?



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    #2878
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Strange one from a Minister who wants 'zero tolerance'. Would she not already know what should happen?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1223/1423527-judge/




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    #2879
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532705#Comment_121532705

    To be fair, you'd be among the first on here moaning if she did it wrong so she's completely correct to proceed with caution and make sure that it is all done correctly with no room for legal challenge.



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    #2880
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532705#Comment_121532705

    Beyond your misunderstand there is nothing strange about it. Of course she knows what should happen as do we all. But the how depends on the verdict and of course it would be very incompetent of any minister to take legal action on a matter like this without seeking the advice of the governments chief law officer, that is why he is there.

    No doubt you'd be whining as well if they did not seek the advise of the AG and it went pear shaped.



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    #2881
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532741#Comment_121532741
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532751#Comment_121532751

    Fairly par for the course that I would be the problem here.

    Surely a competent minister would already know what should happen. I find it strange she would not already have consulted on this.



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