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Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

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  • Oh I'm not doubting that he can make mistakes but when he's in the middle for an Interpro involving 1 or even two teams he previously played with, those mistakes are magnified.

    For what it's worth, I thought he was very good in the Bordeaux vs. Bristol game the weekend



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The idea that one of the five high-performance referees professionally contracted by the IRFU is considered "terrible" shows a worrying slip in the standards of discourse. It's also a sign of how a sad minority of determined trolls have wielded influence; whinge long and hard enough that a referee is biased, or a cheat, you can normalize judgements like a referee is "terrible".

    Is he as good as some of the other professional referees - no.

    But is he biased/a cheat/terrible - also no.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Biased, cheat and terrible are not in any way equitable.

    He is not a good ref. There have been many "terrible" professional rugby players and there doesn't tend to be much outrage about calling them as such.

    It is obviously all relative and very few people have claimed he is the first two (many have said it was unfair to put him in the position of reffing certain interpros because of the possibility of claims of the first two and I stand by that). But yeah, compared to other professional referees I think he is terrible. Is it flippant? Sure. Was Tony Buckley a better prop than almost everyone? yes. Was he a terrible prop for his level? also yes (for Tony Buckley read Clint Newland or whoever you want).

    People are going to be flippant about these things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 284 ✭✭Number 137




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Flat disagree, he’s a fine referee, I’ve often posted that he’s demonstrated good instincts and gotten the balance right. I find a lot of complaints are as Neil says, from a “sad minority of determined trolls”.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He is inconsistent, he frequently seems to miss things, he has a habit of getting quite defensive when questioned and he is poor at communicating with players.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    To be clear, I never said they were equitable. Quite the opposite. I think it's door-in-the-face bias... ?

    Establish a context where people have to defend accusation A, they are more willing to let accusation B slip...?

    (where A is substantially more egregious than B, and where B would typically be defended were it not for that priming...)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would argue the opposite though, that it is easier to equate them and come out against the obviously egregious ones.

    No one in the last page at least has argued the former two points.

    I appreciate that reffing is difficult, but he has consistently demonstrated that he is at the lower level of the game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 284 ✭✭Number 137


    Phrases like 'inconsistent' and 'seems to miss things' are so vague and don't actually exhibit any evidence. In what aspect of the game does he seem to be inconsistent or miss things? Or is it just a sweeping statement? All referees are pretty defensive when questioned. What makes his communication poor? Something specific would add weight to your opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭Pepp1989


    I'm in the camp that doesn't give a damn where Frank Murphy hails from but thinks he is a poor referee. It's the inconsistency from ruck to ruck which makes it extremely frustrating to watch games reffed by him. Seems a total lottery.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    All refs are not defensive when questioned, many engage with the players about their concerns. His inconsistency is something I notice in games and leaves an impression on me.

    And sure, I don't keep a spreadsheet of things he does wrong. The same way I would struggle to give specific examples of why I think Michalak was a ropey as hell flyhalf but I'm very confident in saying he was one (or examples of Hayes being a poor scrummager, or examples of Luke McGrath being a bad passer etc etc etc).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's entirely credible that he is biased, even unconsciously, towards Munster. It would be somewhat unusual if he wasn't.

    He's a guy who obviously grew up loving rugby, was an exceptional underage rugby player through the Munster system, won a Munster Schools Cup in CBC, represented Munster at underage and then at senior level. While he wasn't there for the European Cups, he was still there during a quasi golden era for Munster where they were the most successful Irish province, making European finals and had incredible support.

    He presumably still lives there to this day.

    All of that has to have an impact on him, even subconsciously. Because of this, he should never be put in a position where he's refereeing Munster.

    In a legal context, you don't have to prove actual bias when questioning the impartiality of a judge for example; the test is the appearance of bias. Would a reasonable person look at the fact Frank Murphy is from Munster, played for Munster and presumably supported Munster and conclude it's logical he might be biased towards Munster, of course they would.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    I have to say the questioning of referees decisions is complete blight on the game. One or two conversations is fine but its every bloody decision.

    They really need to enforce marching the team back 10m again.

    Its a ridiculously tough job.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It's as credible as saying he's aware of this perceived bias, so subconsciously / unconsciously overcompensates the other way.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, possibly so, but either way, it's putting him in an impossible position, and inviting scrutiny and criticism.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I agree, I think it's completely unfair on him tbh. But way too much is made of his performances in those interpro's.

    Imo, it all goes back to that game in Thomond where Leinster completely lost their discipline and, deservedly, got 2 yellows and a red in one half of rugby. As far as I recall, it was their first cards of the season up to that point. 

    Since then, he's continued to receive a completely unfair level of criticism, verging on abuse, for his performances in interpro's. 

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, of course, it's all big bad Leinster's fault.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't want to get into and endless round of trying to clarify what the other said, but I would take comments like

    Imo, it all goes back to that game in Thomond where Leinster completely lost their discipline and Since then, he's continued to receive a completely unfair level of criticism are absolutely clearly implying it's the fault of Leinster and, connectedly, their fanbase.

    When the reality is fans of all four provinces (including Munster) have been extremely critical of Murphy's refereeing performance.

    It was heightened in the URC knock out last year obviously, but that's arguably the biggest stage he's refereed an interpro at.

    I don't think he was the decisive factor in that game, but Leinster fans will naturally feel aggrieved that he declined to card Barron for high hit on Connors in the first couple of minutes and in Murray Kinsella's piece titled 'Anatomy of a Drop Goal' where he goes through the phases leading to the Crowley drop goal, he also suggests "Munster were lucky to get away with Scannell's run ahead of the ball here" at a point when he clearly interferes with a potential tackler, and highlights how fortunate they were a phase or two later to get away with Josh Wycherley flopping over a ruck off his feet, with Kinsella highlighting "Frank Murphy is seemingly content that it hasn't denied Leinster a turnover", and finally there's the sequence immediately before the drop goal, where Jack O'Donoghue and Niall Scannell are clearly using their hands to scoop the ball back in the ruck (after Healy's big counter ruck). Any of these events could have been called as a penalty against Munster, and obviously weren't.

    In an incredibly tight game, these are the fine margins, and it's entirely reasonable for Leinster fans to expect that the guy tasked with making those calls in that situation isn't a former player & supporter of the opposite team.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There's an obvious difference between highlighting the origin and laying blame / fault for all the criticism.

    And I'd wager some of the types of incidents you highlight happen in the phases preceding practically every score in a game of rugby. But regardless, that's not the type of criticism I was talking about.

    It's the "cheat / bought and paid for" type of comments that are way over the top.

    Fwiw, I don't know too many Munster fans who are particularly happy any time he's appointed to one of our games.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, I completely agree with you, I can't stand the "cheat / bought and paid for" type talk, and never have believed it of any referee. But it's a microcosm of the general criticism he receives.

    They should just refrain from putting him in that position going forward; he shouldn't be refereeing games involving Munster or Connacht.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Schorpio


    The problem is the Christmas fixtures though.

    Referees are human, and will want to spend Christmas with their families. Therefore, the season fixtures are quite restricted in terms of the bodies you can get to be the man in the middle. It limits your options, and you end up with Irish referees (Frank included) refereeing provincial derbies.

    It's not ideal, but it is what it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,046 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Yep. Exactly. All teams play in country at Christmas so can't expect refs to not do it as well. 4 of the 5 high performance refs with irfu are members of MAR. We need more refs to make that panel from other provinces. The 2 refs in the high performance development group are from leinster/Ulster so hopefully they can step up soon and it will be bit more even



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I fully agree, it's not that long ago that Nigel Owens had to spend Christmas Day in Ireland so he could ref the St. Stephen's Day fixture in Thomond Park but again, if you must pick an Irish ref to ref InterPros then pick a neutral and if there isn't a neutral then pick the best available. Frank should be a last option.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Well Frank isn't reffing this, so can we move on to the actual match?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    This week's PSOM I think it was the "Tom" character (is that TRK?) mentioned Munster have a few signings already done, redeploying the RG (and possibly Joey C) money, just still to be announced. 👀



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Haven't listened to it yet, any clues on who they lined up



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    None really. Not even sure if he knew himself the specifics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I don’t know about terrible but he is quite hard to predict which to me is the worst quality in a ref. Even within one game i find.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I’m sure they do as that’s what clubs do every season but it sounds like he’s talking through his hoop trying to appear like he’s in the know.



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