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The nasty side to teaching

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ottolwinner


    Where do I mention 25+ years interviewing?

    For your tally taking no. I’ve never received payment for being on an interview panel or interviewing candidates for jobs. I do it for giving back to SMEs, self employed business looking to expand, emerging businesses who can’t afford the time or costs associated with hiring.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    I think COVID put things into a different light for parents. If kids can miss large chunks of school then a day or two doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Families have had tough times and taking a break when they can afford it can be beneficial. We also keep our kids home more often these days when they have colds, levels of sickness where we would have sent them in before COVID they are kept home now.

    Are you going to complain about teachers doing the same thing and missing days and weeks during the term because they are on holiday?

    Teaching is not an easy job, btw. I am not for a second implying that, not that it is okay for kids to miss large chunks of school, but a day or two, especially at lower level primary, isn't the end of the world

    Post edited by randomname2005 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,048 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    This is a thread on teaching. The interviews I'm referring to are AP1 and AP2 post of responsibility interviews that mainly occur between a principal and usually another principal and a member of a BoM - all of whom are paid separately. I don't know why you think that's the same as you volunteering your services in an entirely different sector for SMEs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    When seniority went collegiality went in our staff room. For sure, the old system was flawed but the current system where the post is in the gift of the P is even worse! Dress it up however u like, Ps are picking & promoting their favourites. All he needs is an obliging Chair of the BOM…which they always are, that’s why they hold the position for years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Crakepottle?


    Promoted teachers being deliberately and systematially undermined so that they will retire and their posts will become available to people of the Principal's choice. Primary school children having their futures totally undermined because their teacher is being subjected to abusive and disgraceful treatment! Parents do not have a clue what is going on, and frequently in schools with a Catholic ethos and everything that is supposed to represent. An absolute disgrace!

    ri



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Coupled with the effective loss of the right to appeal the new posts system is an utter joke .I think in many cases youngish, forty something principals like the idea of having younger people 'beneath' them and are insecure about older staff as AP1s etc .The logical conclusion is that some backstabbing kid just out of college will be a typical Year Head in the 2030s .The old system may have let the occasional 'weak link' through the system but it was far better than this shambles which has installed a glass ceiling ,seeing solid ,older teachers being passed over repeatedly for the last five years now .

    Its not that much of an exaggeration I reckon to say if you dont start on your leadership/management 'upskilling' fresh out of college (when you should be focussng on finding your feet in the classroom)you will now be similarly bypassed .And how many teachers do you think will survive 40-50 years to claim mediocre pensions ?The teachers' career path has been completely knocked out of kilter .Either become a DP or find a second career seems to be the choice if we are to continue to mimic UK system .Over 45 classrooms teachers close to extinct there and soon to be so here also.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    As I understand it, the various programmes out there to support timetabling (though some people still do it with little plastic blocks) require all your restrictions and immovable feasts to be put in at the start. If you are in a subject or banded grouping with 6 others, what affects one will affect all six, yes. It depends how your timetable maker has set it up. Every school is different.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,048 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Agree with this. What is happening in (secondary) teaching in Ireland is that the teachers earmarked for promotion are those that lick the principal's arse and routinely take time out of their classroom duties (i.e. NOT teaching) to take on PR events that "promote" the school. These PR events are otherwise known as "showing leadership". What's more is that many of these teachers take students out of classes of the real teachers in the school to promote their own pet projects that they hope principal will notice.

    I heard of a school in Dublin where the principal promoted a lot of young female teachers to posts, thus overlooking or ignoring their more experienced colleagues. A number of these teachers became pregnant at the same time and the principal was left asking for the teachers he ignored to take on their roles whilst they went on maternity leave.


    It's an absolute shambles what's going on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 607 ✭✭✭ottolwinner


    Well aware of the thread thanks. I work in education now and in case you forgot the reason i responded to your post was the huge generalisation you made that all posts are rigged and that it was fact. You can’t claim it to be unless you’ve the evidence no matter how much you want to shout people down with your sensationalisation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,048 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Perhaps I'll ask you again so. . . . Have you ever been paid for being an interviewer at an AP1 or AP2 interview?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,383 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Principal in my school told an applicant only 2 months ago, who mentioned to him that she was applying for the A post who was getting it - this was a few days before the closing date.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,383 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Yep, people over 40 in my school do not apply for posts because they won't get them - these are competent experienced people that the workload falls back on when the **** hits the fan because they know what to do. Teachers out of college 2-3 years are getting the posts and while they are perfectly entitled to apply for them, none of them stop for one second to consider why teachers with huge amounts of experience are not getting the jobs and are also not applying. Another post interview a couple of years back in my school, a teacher came out of it and having had a chat with them they told me how hard the questions were, that they didn't understand some of them and said 'i don't know' to multiple questions. The person still got the A post ahead of highly experienced, competent teachers. It's an absolute farce.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,383 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Ah here. It's insulting to teachers to post that on this forum. Teachers up and down the country can give you examples of dodgy post interviews. People can only appeal on procedure not on unfairness. When my principal can name who is getting the post before the closing date for applications, it most definitely can be rigged. I can predict the order of merit for any set of post interviews in my school based on how well the candidate gets on with the principal. And A and B post jobs are not life and death. They are largely discipline, year head duties, exam secretary, school PR, and a variety of other admin duties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,383 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    So you haven't actually done any interviewing in this sector which is what you were trying to imply in your earlier posts? Then you have no idea what you are talking about and have no business lecturing teachers about transparency in post interviews when you haven't the first clue about how the system works.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭ethical


    The Post system is an absolute farce in both religious and etb (they do not deserve capitals!).The same old cronies are rolled out time and time again as interview panels and believe it or not some of them make sure the schedule is on their terms so that they can turn up at countless interviews at different etbs so that travelling expenses can be maxed.For the serial religious member its usually 'one for all' vouchers.Mind you some 'people' turn up at both religious/etbs....money is money!!! Expenses are lucrative.

    I recall one incident where the 'canonised' person bought a whole new wardrobe of clothes because they knew they were getting the post weeks before interview! I could write a book now on the way some careers were destroyed by the 'systems'.

    And its true enough what Rainbowtrout says that some seniors do not bother applying now because of their previous experiences in their particular schools.It will never change,the appeals system is another joke. Box ticking exercise.So if you want box ticking and ars* licking join an etb!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Crakepottle?


    Withdrawal of normal support for teacher (senior postholder), so that person will leave. In 5th Class, acknowledged by many to be the most crucial year of the Primary Cycle. A few children permitted to disrupt the class for the entire year. "I'm not takin off me coat do ya want me to freeze to death? Anyway it's a Michael Wotsit. It'd be robbed out on the corridor." Response of Principal? I wouldn't go there with that mother if I were you!!. Serious breach of Health and Safety eg attempting to send the teacher out alone with twenty pupils to a local venue, several crossings, busy road, behavioral issues in the group! That's only a tiny fraction of the outrageous incidents. An absolute circus of a year! The problem is the uncertainty about who is in charge. How are these abuses permitted?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,626 ✭✭✭Treppen


    You have to think forward.

    In a few years time, not only will they run out of potential applicants for posts (look to UK where NQTs from Ireland are instantly promoted to head of department when arriving).

    They will also start to run out of applicant for principals. Again... Look to UK where non teachers are now "managing" the school. Not to far off the us system either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    So true Treppen & because newly appointed Ps have spent so little time in the classroom they see themselves as ‘managers’ not teachers. And don’t get me started on VPs not teaching their required hours, so all the ‘managers’ sit in their offices. Then have minimum staff meetings & lump everyone into ‘school planning’ groups for CP hours…the actual ‘managers’ have very little to do



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,626 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Is it just our school or is 'middle management' now a thing.

    Sad in a way, it's like education really wants to ape the business model in order to gather some identification of being 'professional', but the education and collegiality part is being lost.

    What we need is more graphs and measurement and paperwork and surveys.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    I think its sad how quickly it has been adopted and how detrimental it is to collegiality etc

    I have to laugh quietly to myself whenever I hear the whole "community of learners" type tropes trotted out....most of what I see and hear is very much at odds with the idea of a community.....its every man, woman and child for his or herself or indeed whatever gender you are having yourself as far as I can see.

    I think it will prove to be quite damaging long term but only time will tell I suppose.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭Icsics


    Very much a thing. Our middle managers have a timetabled ‘management meeting’ every week…tea coffee & biscuits served. While we have the bare minimum of 3 staff meetings in a year!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,383 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Ah, we haven't had a staff meeting since September and I know there was 1 A post holder meeting in late September early October about a specific issue, but there hasn't been any since. The stuff that goes on in my school (or doesn't go on depending on what way you look at it ) is mental.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 239 ✭✭tikka16751


    Norma is brilliant



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭monseiur


    My brother, who was a second level maths & science teacher for 12 years before starting his own business, used to say that the three best things about teaching was June, July & August 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,626 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Yes it's definitely a thing. No staff meetings, just CPD and a few announcements.

    Consultation is gone out the window, other than a survey that's already pre-determined , maybe they were too heated and personal in the past, but still... It's nice to be consulted and have a chat.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I think there are good and bad schools.

    I had a rocky start to my teaching career. **** contracts

    I think it has somewhat improved with CID

    A lot of moaning here but I wonder how many people are active in their union?

    I'm not saying it's a magic wand but a start.

    The gap between the pay scales has been gradually eroded.

    I gave up taking the education system seriously about a decade ago. I just try to do my best. I'm lucky to have a benign management.

    If I didn't I'd use the grievance procedures.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    20 pupils and one teacher is an improvement on the more common 30/1 - schools don’t have “ spare “ people to go with group.

    I’ve never heard that 5th was “ the most important year” in primary , where does this spring from? If we are going anecdotally, junior infants would be the critical year for me .

    “ Middle management “ certainly is “ a thing “ and has been for quite a while - see thus circular from 2017 .

    I think the post system and “ Croke Park “ hours have contributed to a loss of goodwill in schools. Many additional hours of work went unrecognised and people felt aggrieved.

    https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/education/2017/63.pdf



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I’m very much in agreement re Unions . People give out the the “INTO don’t do anything “ but won’t go to meetings where they could make an impact .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭blackbox


    Didn't the union's sign the Croke park agreement on behalf of their members?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    late to reading this but I can see so much of this in my own school and yet so may differences. We are sick to the back teeth of meetings, we have very regular 2 hour meets after school, every minute is counted. Our Posts are all overloaded so when one is advertised it’s usually the one person who applies that gets it. Also the P seems to knock a perverse kick out of changing peoples posts every 2 years. Just when you get to grips with a post you get moved to a totally different area which is another reason people do t want to apply for them. I am counting down the years to retirement but I would not advise anyone to enter secondary teaching the way things are currently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Theyve kinda been told to vary post duties to broaden our skillset and in theory any post should be capable of being done by any staff member .On the ground of course thats not what happens .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    I know that’s the case but we have had people who have qualifications in SEN moved from the SENCO role to something they have no experience in and people who are excellent in IT moved similarly. Meanwhile people are moved into those roles with no experience or interest in the roles. It’s a crazy situation when it’s so random and totally at the whim of the principal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭ethical


    The same sh1t has been going on for years and unfortunately will not change any time soon. Younger teachers,for the most part have no interest in joining their union…..but will take on positions that may further their careers!

    As regards changing the Posts around it has been 'a recommendation ' for a number of years now to do this.Some Principals adhere to it,some do not.

    Have you noticed when Principals return from an ETB principals meeting or a JMB meeting that 'new' ideas of how to keep the teacher busy are thrown out at meetings. ETB principals have it easy and try to make their positions 'important' by having countless,useless meetings. Voluntary Secondary school principals have a more difficult job.

    Has anyone noticed that the most important teacher in any school is the class teacher……if that person is absent there is generally chaos in trying to get a sub whereas if a principal is missing,no one notices and the school day runs smoothly!



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,506 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    That's presuming the teacher is not teaching a class.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Gun to their heads at the time. Sign this or we cut your pay.

    I'd be critical of unions as to how slow they are in moving to remove the hours now the agreements have expired (Croke Park & Haddington).

    Easter conferences passed a number of motions to have these hours removed. Hopefully we're entering the last year of doing these daft hours (if you don't know, they do nothing to improve teaching)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    I think in many ways they have disimproved it....reduction in goodwill and a space for "initiatves" that usually end up in more meaningless crapola



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