Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

loco_scolo · 06-12-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462203#Comment_121462203

I agree 6tpdph is unrealistic - but likely 4tpdph is doable as it allows for a few minutes either side of trains arriving / departing. Within an hour, you could have Galway-Dublin, Galway-Limerick, Galway-Castlebar, and an additional Galway-Tuam/Gort commuter. Every other hour you could have direct Westport-Limerick and/or Ballina-Limerick via Athenry to supplement connections to Galway or Dublin.

Ideally, the double tracking will allow the intercity trains to skip Oranmore, Athenry etc. and allow quicker intercity, while being supplemented by commuter trains every 20-30minutes.

loco_scolo · 06-12-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462342#Comment_121462342

That's the main reason/excuse used, but definitely a passenger goal there also.

goingnowhere · 07-12-2023 11:13am

The works Athenry to Claremorris are nothing, its a low cost tactical move to enforce ownership of the line to prevent adverse possession situations and to avoid the need for the Railway Works Order to reopen (which takes 2-3 years and a lot of €). If they can keep the slignment free of unauthorised development its a lot cheaper and easier to reopen if that was to be funded/approved which it is not at this time.

Geuze · 19-12-2023 12:51pm

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/provisional-agreement-more-sustainable-and-resilient-trans-european-transport-network-brings-europe-2023-12-19_en

Provisional agreement on more sustainable and resilient trans-European transport network brings Europe closer together

The European Commission welcomes the political agreement reached last night between the European Parliament and the Council on the regulation underpinning the trans-European transport network (TEN-T). The co-legislators agreed to significantly step up efforts to build a sustainable and resilient TEN-T. This includes strong incentives to increase the use of more sustainable forms of transport, and to improve multimodality – the practice of combining transport modes for a single journey – within the European transport system.

Agreed vision for European transport infrastructure

The revised TEN-T will set mandatory targets:

Passenger railway lines on the TEN-T core and extended core network shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster by 2040.
The European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) must be rolled out on the entire TEN-T network as the single European signalling system in Europe to make rail safer and more efficient. Consequently, national legacy ‘class B’ systems must be decommissioned progressively; this will incentivise European industry to invest in ERTMS.
Safe and secure parking areas shall be developed on the core and extended core road network of the TEN-T by 2040, on average every 150 km. This is key to assuring safety and appropriate working conditions for professional drivers.
Major airports, dealing with more than 12 million passengers annually, will have to be connected by long-distance rail, a major step towards improving connectivity and accessibility for passengers and strengthening the competitiveness of rail vis-a-vis domestic flights.

Geuze · 19-12-2023 12:54pm

I have often stated on here that Dublin airport should be on the intercity rail network.

It should be a stop on the Dublin to Belfast line, with another stop in Swords.

Not many agreed with me on here.

Now, the European Commission, Parliament and Council agree that large airports should be on the intercity networks.

bk · 19-12-2023 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513670#Comment_121513670

The question would be if Metrolink would satisfy this requirement as it would allow for heavy rail passengers to get to the airport with one easy transfer.

No one disagrees that there should be rail to the airport. But Metrolink is rail!

It would be a big waste of time, effort and money to have to build a heavy rail line to the airport, when Metrolink can do 95% of the same.

I'm not saying there should never be a heavy rail link to the airport. But we have much bigger fish to fry before that, I'd want us to focus on building Metrolink and DART+ and future Metro lines over the next 20 years versus wasting time and money on a heavy rail link to the airport.

I feel the above requirement is easy for the EU to make as most big European cities already have comprehensive Metro networks and some just need to finish the job by connecting heavy rail to the airport.

We on the other hand are at least 50 years behind and we have higher priorities to work on first.

pigtown · 19-12-2023 1:28pm

● Passenger railway lines on the TEN- T core and extended core network shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster by 2040.

Would this actually work against efforts to open passenger rail on the Foynes line? I can't see that ever reaching speeds of 160km/h

bennyineire · 19-12-2023 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513782#Comment_121513782

Also one of the main reasons for it on that report is to provide a rail alternative to flying to other major cities in Europe. There will never be a better alternative to flying from Dublin to another European capital due to geography

Geuze · 19-12-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513782#Comment_121513782

When you say "one easy transfer", how does that work for pax/trains from Athlone, Portlaoise, Kilkenny?

Surely they must change twice?

bk · 19-12-2023 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514428#Comment_121514428

Shrug, so what? Two transfers wouldn't be unusual on public transport around the world. I'm sure many of us have done it in the likes of London without barely thinking about it.

Also it is possible they could route some trains from Cork etc. through the Phoenix Park tunnel, it use to be done semi regular in the past.

riddlinrussell · 20-12-2023 12:17pm

I would say that routing could for sure increase in use, if it wasn't for DART using that routing, it might be a case of, change at Park West to DART and then Cross Guns for the airport, but given the planned frequencies those would be pretty painless transfers.

I think the Heuston West Station not spanning the Heuston approach tracks is a bit of a missed opportunity for a transfer station and transfer is something they will need to give due consideration in designing a Ballyfermot station into that line.

loco_scolo · 20-12-2023 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121517485#Comment_121517485

The plan, apparently, is that all intercity trains will stop at Portlaoise only, then Heuston. I suggested that all these trains should make a dedicated stop nearer to the city for a direct Dart interchange, though I got very little support here for that suggestion.

The idea that you'd need to change at Portlaoise, 90km outside the city, to connect with the commuter or Dart network is ludicrous.

riddlinrussell · 20-12-2023 3:49pm

I'd argue a bare minimum of stopping at Hazelhatch for DART exchange should take place, although doing this much closer in to 'skip' DART stops makes a lot of sense.

I think that's the big missed opportunity of Heuston West, if it was built across the mainline at Islandbridge it could act as the transfer point for DART from Intercity and Commuter.

Geuze · 21-12-2023 12:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518377#Comment_121518377

I agree.

Consonata · 21-12-2023 2:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513806#Comment_121513806

Most of the network I can't see reaching 160kph unless serious funding is put in. Given the Cork/Dublin line averages 92kph, on the most "modern" route, it would require a nearly 100% improvement in existing journey times.

I would be delighted to see it happen. It would halve most intercity journeys, making a fairly dramatic comparison with their bus counterparts. However given how getting ML through the govt was like getting blood from a stone, I'll believe it when I see it.

timmyntc · 21-12-2023 8:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121520816#Comment_121520816

"Allow trains to travel at 160km/h or faster" sounds like a top speed not an average speed.

CatInABox · 21-12-2023 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521032#Comment_121521032

Indeed, one of the definitions for high speed rail is that it has to have an average speed above 150km\h, (along with a top speed of over 200km\h) and there's no way we're building high speed rail anytime soon.

Consonata · 21-12-2023 8:23pm

"160kph or faster" would indicate average to me rather than top speed, but regardless I doubt we're going down that road.

bk · 21-12-2023 9:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523754#Comment_121523754

Usually when folks talk about speed of a particular rail route, they mean that the train, tracks and signalling are specced to handle speeds up to 160km/h, etc.

For instance you will often hear of a high speed rail line reaching 300km/h and it certainly will do that for stretches of the track, but obviously it will slow coming into stations and it certainly won’t average 300km/h for the entire journey.

CramCycle · 21-12-2023 9:32pm

Even just getting the Wexford line upto 120 would be a massive improvement, 140 would be a dream

Pete_Cavan · 22-12-2023 6:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121523754#Comment_121523754

If you don't limit the quote to just the speed you will see "shall allow trains to travel at 160 km/h or faster". That is certainly top speed and stops and lower speed sections will reduce the average speed.

Sam Russell · 22-12-2023 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524026#Comment_121524026

Even getting the Wexford train to Wexford in the morning (before Noon) would be an improvement.

You would not want to be using the train to get to a business meeting in Wexford if you are based in Dublin - or even Enniscorthy.

namloc1980 · 22-12-2023 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524989#Comment_121524989

So having a short stretch of 160kmh track would meet the legal obligation.

bk · 22-12-2023 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526303#Comment_121526303

Most likely the details are spelt out in other documents.

I'd assume that in general the line/signalling/rolling stock will all be designed for at least 160km/h running, but of course you wouldn't be doing that speed entering/exiting a station and then there would be line restrictions for maintenance.

It isn't a perfect analogy, but think of the intercity motorways, they are designed for 120km/h running (or higher) and so are most cars. But then it isn't like you will be doing 120km/h at peak times on the Naas Road or approaching Cork, etc. Plus there can be temporary speed restrictions during works, etc.

So the goal would certainly be for the entire line to be designed to 160km/h minimum, but not really an average speed for a journey.

KrisW1001 · 22-12-2023 3:55pm

Yes.. Design speed, not in-service speed.

Currently, I suspect we have some sections of track already capable of 200km/h running in theory, but as the fastest train on the network cannot exceed 165km/h, that track speed is irrelevant.

Really, trains will not run faster than 160 until the lines are electrified. That will have to happen in the next decade on Cork-Dublin, as the locomotives are coming toward the end of their operational life, and there's no way we can justify buying more diesels to replace them..

cgcsb · 22-12-2023 4:35pm

It would be great to see Dublin-Cork running electric trains at 200kmh, technically high speed. We could have 90 minute journeys between the 2 cities every 30 mins. Proportionate to our population that'd be a superior service than almost anything on offer in Europe (and therfore the world). I think most of Dublin to Cork can already do this, its a pretty straight alignment and good quality track, the verges are well maintained and most of the low bridges have already been replaced and the last 4 level crossings will soon be gone. Alot of the stations could use a bit of work though. Doing the same for Dublin to Galway would be a much tougher exercise, but gradual improvements over time are how it gets done.

bk · 22-12-2023 8:43pm

Proportionate to our population that'd be a superior service than almost anything on offer in Europe (and therefore the world).

I think this is a great point worth keeping in mind. Of course everyone looks on with jealousy at 300km/h high speed rail in mainline Europe, but miss the point that it connects much larger cities in Europe.

A line that connected a million person city to a 300k city, wouldn’t be much more than a branch line with slow trains in most of Europe, unless there were more big cities along the line.

I think we are actually quite lucky with the network we have. With the exception of Navan and Swords, every town with a population of 20,000 or more is on the rail network and good connectivity between the cities.

We just need to try and make the most of the network. Speed increases, frequency increases, electrification, double tracking, etc.

ohographite · 22-12-2023 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527538#Comment_121527538

There is actually another town with over 20, 000 people but without rail transport: Letterkenny. Its population is approximately 22, 000.

namloc1980 · 23-12-2023 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526615#Comment_121526615

I'd be stunned if Cork-Dublin gets electrified in the next decade. To get it done, and given how long it takes to get any sort of non-roads infrastructure up and running in this country, you'd want to see serious movement now with allocated funding and plans being progressed.

CatInABox · 23-12-2023 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528920#Comment_121528920

Yes, early planning may start in about 8 or 9 years, but it'd be a good few years after that before we see construction start. Consider the program of work that the NTA/TII have to get through: Metrolink, Dart+ projects, BusConnects, Luas Green Line Capacity project (again), smaller projects like Limerick-Foynes, M20 motorway project. Those are all on the books right now, at various stages, and require significant admin work to carry out. I'd also hazard a guess that once Metrolink gets under way, they'll launch a project to sort out the south side section of Metrolink.

All of these are sucking up the capacity at NTA/TII, and will for the foreseeable. I'd say once Metrolink is properly underway, along with at least two of the DART+ projects, that they'll start planning a Cork-Dublin Electrification project. As to the fact that the diesels are coming to end of life, Irish Rail have spoken numerous times about hydrogen trains, and have mentioned bi and even tri mode trains. Even if Dublin Cork is electrified, we'll still need trains to go on other lines too.

Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Comments

Agreed vision for European transport infrastructure