Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I think support is fairly high(unless it has plummeted in the past short while).The only way forward I can see is for the IDF to break the back of Hamas and for there to be an election in Israel

(or a unity government where those responsible for this latest mess voluntarily take a back seat)

that removes Net et al from power.

Then the illegal settlements would have to be returned and some way of governing Gaza that did not present a military threat to Israel.( a UN mandate again with Egypt this time?)

Well they can be physically defeated in Gaza I believe.

Of course you cannot defeat a belief system unless you act like Stalin in Russia but a physical defeat of Hamas and its terrorist allies could provide a breathing space for new arrangements.

This is existential for Israel.

They are hopefully taking as many precautions as possible to limit civilian casualties but this is a war and we cannot expect them to value the lives of those on the other side as highly as they value their own and that of their own population.

Altruism and warfare don't rhyme.

Who would Hamas's terrorist allies be and how would Israel defeat them?

They are simply not taking as many (any) precautions as possible to limit civilian causalities. Benji and Biden both acknowledged that.

But people on here still believe they are.

It's a painful watch, but educational: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html

If you deliberately drop 2000lb bombs on civilian areas there's absolutely zero justification other than cause shock and awe and kill 100's of civilians. And this in one of the most densely populated placed on the planet. It's simply indefensible.

A dumb bomb is still less accurate than a smart bomb. And there's no system available to drop dumb bombs accurately in a densely populated city, especially with 2000lb bombs. Dive bombing would actually be more accurate as you driving the bomb into the direction the plane is diving to.

"Who would Hamas's terrorist allies be and how would Israel defeat them?"

I don't know who their allies would be apart from the obvious ones.

Israel doesn't seem to have a plan beyond the present war.

It imay not be surprising that they had no such plan as they must have thought they had no alternative to do what they did and paid little heed to the consequences afterwards.

If they were 100% confident in the outcome then ,yes they should be planning for what follows.

Maybe they are not confident and have not formed a plan in their own minds for the day after.

Would they have a unified approach anyway?

Has the Israeli political opposition a voice at present in any debate as what arrangements could be found if or when Hamas' hold on Gaza is broken?

It's unidirectional? Hamas aren't defending themselves? They've stopped aggressively launching rockets? That'd stop the fighting for sure. Try again.

Actually it's nothing like the Vietnam war. For one thing, the VC were not the government of South Vietnam. They were an actual irregular force. Hamas relationship with Gaza is closer to that of the Nazis to Germany, or other "traditional" wars. I.E. they are government forces.

Also, none of the Vietnamese were a mortal enemy of the US, the Vietnamese Communists were clear that once the US left, that was the end of it. Also Vietnam was nowhere near the US on the map. The opposite is true in Gaza, Israel's problems with Gaza began when they left and Hamas have made it clear that their quarrel is a fight to the death.

This conflict is the exact opposite of the US-Vietnam War in every conceivable respect.

Do you have any evidence that the Allies had some sort of "idea of the number of civilians they were willing to accept" before they felt they'd have to ceasefire, thereby letting the Nazis win??

I've never heard of any such calculation existing.

In fact I know that in occupied France, where the Nazi occupiers prioritised their solders' safety over that of the civilians (rather like Hamas in Gaza, except Hamas are supposed to be on the same side as Gazans) the death rates from the Allied bombing raids over cities like Brest, Lorient or Toulon were far higher per capita than London. IOW they were bombing people they were also fighting to free - and nobody protested there that there were too many deaths. Neither before nor after.

So I think you're just making that up.

Clearly you don't though. What have you had to say about (for instance) Saudi Arabia killing Yemenis? Or deaths in Sudan/Southern Sudan? Thousands dead - how many civilians were acceptable to you there? Have you even posted about any of that, pre Oct 7th?

You're also just making stuff up about previous wars having had a theoretical "acceptable" number of dead civilians, so as to hold the Jews to a standard that nobody else is held to.

The "hue and cry" as you call it was around the fact that not all of those humiliated men were Hamas combatants.

"In a New York Times public opinion survey this week, only 33% of registered American voters approved of the president's handling of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. A plurality, 44% to 39%, said Israel should end its military campaign."

full article:

I'm not sure what you mean. It's not about "look over there", it's about pointing out double standards. And they are double standards, and only apply to Jews. Make of that what you will.

I agree by the way about Netanyahu - way before the Hamas attacks I was hoping he'd end up in prison. Not just for his rejection of the two-state solution but also that.

But Hamas are propping him up too. In fact it looks to me like Hamas prefer having someone like him in power than someone who actually wants peace.

I think it's more complicated than that. Many observers are of the opinion that the IDF are also quite deliberately attacking the Gazan population (a repeat of Dresden etc) nothing to do with collateral damage. Yes, they are indeed trying to wipe out Hamas and kill all its members, but a far more sinister element is that they may be deliberately attempting to terrorise the entire Gazan population : 'put manners on them' so to speak.