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Are Atheists optimists or pessimists?

  • 23-12-2023 12:40am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭


    One time, I heard a Jewish guy say the before the Nazis turned up the heat in the 1930s, Jewish pessimists went to New York and the optimists ended up going to Auswitch.

    As a Christian, I find my faith makes me an optimist but only in the things I control and it may me a pessimist with things I don't control.

    My guess is wayward Jews would have been dismissive of impending danger from the Nazi regime as they were probably less religious and less inclined to think things through.

    Another trait I associate with people of little faith is they don't see the past in a glass half full way but they see the past in a more negative light and so they favour change that they think will make things better.

    Thoughts please.



Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    An atheist is simply someone who don't believe in a god or gods. This doesn't tell us anything at all about whether they're likely to be an optimist or a pessimist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭sniperman


    there is only one god......cash



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,627 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Atheists don't believe in any god. That's all they have in common


    I find it funny that many theists feel that they can unite in opposition to atheism as if Atheism was some kind of coherent ideology, and in fact the atheists tend to agree far more with all theists about all other religions (except for one) , than theists of different faiths agree with each other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,627 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I would like to imagine that atheists are more 'realistic' than Theists in that we don't usually believe in the supernatural, but actually political, scientific (pseudoscience) and economic ideologies can be just as irrational as any supernatural belief



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,323 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    A lot of religious folks apply this type of black and white thinking. Optimist versus pessimist. Good versus Evil. Right versus left etc.

    The only unifying quality I've seen in a lot of atheists I know is a sense of realism and a bit less of this black and white thinking. I think you need it somewhat to break free from religion in a culture where it's the dominant way of thinking.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Not sure this bears close inspection. E.g. Largest single body of atheists is likely in China where people still tend to be very superstitious. Your point really only relates to those atheists that have rejected theism in a largely theistic society where they consider it irrational.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    No indicators that would support the argument.

    It would be like someone stating without being able to show evidence to support their argument, that some people who claim to be a believer/religious show strong indicators of just using the term as an excuse for being a cúnt or for their mental health issues etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,323 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I would imagine the OP and the poster you quoted were referring to atheists in a Western sense alright.

    Chinese socilital atheism with people's own personal beliefs (and superstitions) on top of that is a totally different animal imo



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I think they were both referring to different, very specific, subgroups of people who think of themselves as atheists after due consideration. I suspect most atheists don't fall into those categories. Unless you've actively been raised a theist, you're an atheist by default. For most, it's a passive attribute. Either by not being raised a theist or not taking heed of the theist doctrine within your upbringing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Yes. The Communists believed in science and human ingenuity at the outset of the Soviet Union a little over a hundred years ago. They thought along the same lines as contemporary atheists but the Communist experiment was a failure.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    You mean grey as opposed to black or white? One the one hand, on the other hand type thing? The problem with that is sometimes it is necessary to make a decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Ireland is not all that religious. It used to be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Could you think about this and have another go at it? What you said wasn't very coherent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Pope John Paul 2 said that when people ask fundamental questions about existential subjects, they are asking about God without realising it.

    I find that when I speak to Atheists they sometimes throw a lot of these questions at me and I tell them we don't have all the answers. We will never have all the answers and I thank God for that. Wouldn't life be terrible without some mystery left in it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Happy Christmas everyone!!!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    Don't tend to login on a Sunday given the day that it is and given the time of year even longer away.

    Post is fairly clear imo, what part are you having difficulty comprehending



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Does anyone know what this person is talking about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    You asked me to clarify my earlier post last Sunday, I simply mentioned that I don't tend to login here on a Sunday and the Christmas period meant I was away even longer and what part of my original post that you are having difficulty comprehending so I can try and clarify it for you.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    As someone who tries to think rationally, when I don't have the answer to a claimed truth, I look for objective evidence that supports that claim and negative evidence that refutes it. If there is none, I look for evidence of bias. E.g. does convincing other people that the claim is true confer advantage to those making the claim. In the case of existence of a god or gods, there is no objective evidence. Belief is entirely faith based. There is however strong evidence of bias. Churches have held (and often abused) major political and military power throughout history. They continue to do so. The combination of this, in conjunction with lack of any objective evidence, leads me to believe the gods purported to exist by major religions are fabricated as a mechanism to gain social power.

    Nobody has all the answers but this doesn't mean we should blindly accept what appear to be wildly bizarre claims as the basis for living our entire lives.

    Hope this makes sense.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yes, but...

    whether you believe in a god or not will quite often affect your outlook on life (citation required).

    therefore it's likely that atheists (averaged out) will have a different outlook to believers. however, whether it's atheists or believers who differ from a baseline is a matter of perspective, i suspect.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,269 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    @realitykeeper You seem to contradict yourself in two different posts.

    In the first one, you say:

    "My guess is wayward Jews would have been dismissive of impending danger from the Nazi regime as they were probably less religious and less inclined to think things through."

    Despite ignoring the fact that it wouldn't have been as easy for oppressed people to just up and leave as they wished, you seem to draw a line between people being less religious and less inclined to think about things.

    In the same post, you also suggest people of 'little faith' favour change that might make things better yet that doesn't align with your idea that the less religious Jews didn't do anything and just accepted things as they were under the Nazis.

    Later, you say:

    "I find that when I speak to Atheists they sometimes throw a lot of these questions at me and I tell them we don't have all the answers. We will never have all the answers and I thank God for that. Wouldn't life be terrible without some mystery left in it."

    Here, you describe atheists as inquisitive and you 'thank God' that there's 'some mystery' in life. So are you yourself the one not contemplating things, something you suggested led to 'wayward' Jews ending up in Auschwitz?

    Your argument is an incoherent mess, though I doubt you're being entirely sincere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    But don't ya know to reply when you feel like it? That's what everyone else does. Next you'll be giving me your bathroom routine. I don't need to know about your bowel movements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Faith requires the absence of evidence. It is pointless to look for proof of God. Humanity was never ment to discover evidence of God which is why it won't, at least not in this life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    You sound like a ball of confusion. A lost child and a fuzzy headed one at that.

    Aspiring for something better is different to anticipating something worse.

    Also, appreciating mystery is not a bar to exploration or the pursuit of answers. But there will always be more to discover, humanity will never know everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Faith is, IMO, just wishful thinking. How can you "know" that it is pointless to look for proof of God? Or "know" that humanity was never meant to discover evidence of God? You have decided that these things are "just true", because your gut instinct tells you so. Faith is deciding to believe something - usually something you want to be true - and dressing up your acceptance of lack of evidence as something positive.

    I (once) believed in God, but once I figured out how "faith" meant I was simply deceiving myself, faith became just another error in my thinking, due to indoctrination as a child, that I was able to move past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    OK most people can follow a conversation without a direct quote, sorry if this isn't the case here

    So what part of mu original post, I'll repeat it below are you having difficulty comprehending?

    No indicators that would support the argument.

    It would be like someone stating without being able to show evidence to support their argument, that some people who claim to be a believer/religious show strong indicators of just using the term as an excuse for being a cúnt or for their mental health issues etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Faith is not about knowing. It is about believing and it is entirely logical. Christopher Columbus did not know it would be possible to find a westward route to the Orient but he believed it and he was right even though he never found it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    That isn't very Christian now is it, more like projection



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭swampgas



    He made an educated guess and was partly right, and partly wrong. He didn't know America existed, but he knew the world was round and suspected that by going far enough west he would come back around to the east. Perhaps you can see that sailing across the Atlantic to test a hypothesis is more science than blind faith. If Columbus were you he would never have gone to sea, and instead just pontificated on the existence a path to India by sailing off over horizon ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    No. He was right. It is possible to sail around the world. It isn`t flat.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal



    no it isn't flat and it was well known at that point in history that it wasn't flat...through scientific observation going back thousands of years.

    If you've ever heard in school that Columbus believed the world wasn't flat and that everyone else thought it was then you've been told utter nonsense.

    In short the reason why people didn't sail west is navigators thought they would run out of supplies mid-journey and die before reaching India/China as they didn't know America existed. Columbus only set sail because he believed the world was smaller then everyone else did because he was awful at maths, had the America's not existed then Columbus and his men would have died because the world was larger then Columbus incorrectly calculated. He didn't believe or know America existed at all and even when he reached land he incorrectly believed it was Asia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    The round earth was a theory that had yet to be proven conclusively. Back then, learned men believed it likely the earth was round but they didn't know. For all they knew the world could have had curves and a couple of big holes in it where the sun passed through every day.

    Of course the vast majority of common folk thought the earth was flat.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    How do you know that? What was written down about what 'common folk' thought about it?



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal



    Good grief, just spewing out the lazy and false info many of us were told in primary school.

    The earth being round was known for at least 2000 years, it started as a theory (like most everything) but practical observations even 2000 years ago could confirm this theory for example https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/ancient-greeks-proved-earth-round-eratosthenes-alexandria-syene-summer-solstice-a8131376.html


    In the mid-20th century, we began launching satellites into space that would help us determine the exact circumference of the Earth, 40,030 km.

    But over 2,000 years earlier in ancient Greece, a man arrived at nearly that exact same figure by putting a stick in the ground. That man was Eratosthenes. A Greek mathematician and the head of the library at Alexandria.

    Eratosthenes had heard that in Syene, a city south of Alexandria, no vertical shadows were cast at noon on the summer solstice. The sun was directly overhead. He wondered if this were also true in Alexandria.

    So, on June 21 he planted a stick directly in the ground and waited to see if a shadow would be cast at noon. It turns out there was one. And it measured about 7 degrees.

    Now, if the sun's rays are coming in at the same angle at the same time of day, and a stick in Alexandria is casting a shadow while a stick in Syene is not, it must mean that the Earth's surface is curved. And Eratosthenes probably already knew that.

    The idea of a spherical Earth was floated around by Pythagoras around 500 BC and validated by Aristotle a couple centuries later. If the Earth really was a sphere, Eratosthenes could use his observations to estimate the circumference of the entire planet.

    Since the difference in shadow length is 7 degrees in Alexandria and Syene, that means the two cities are 7 degrees apart on Earth's 360-degrees surface. Eratosthenes hired a man to pace the distance between the two cities and learned they were 5,000 stadia apart, which is about 800 kilometres.

    He could then use simple proportions to find the Earth's circumference — 7.2 degrees is 1/50 of 360 degrees, so 800 times 50 equals 40,000 kilometers. And just like that, a man 2200 years ago found the circumference of our entire planet with just a stick and his brain.

    Columbus didn't set out to prove it was round or anything like that https://www.history.com/news/christopher-columbus-never-set-out-to-prove-the-earth-was-round

    What nugget of information are you going to come out with next?, that Columbus brought civilization to the barbaric American's 😂



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Changing the narrative after the fact is a symptom of delusion. With hindsight, of course everyone knows the world is round but before the Magellan voyage, it was not conclusively proved. It was believed, but it was not known.

    The Believers Were Right, of course :)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    where did you get the information that the vast majoirty of 'common folk' believed the earth was flat?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    You are promoting an atheist narrative according to various Christian sites

    The Flat Earth Fallacy: According to the atheist narrative, the medieval Christians all believed that the earth was flat

    You are also believing in a myth attributed to Washington Irving for people still believing in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,741 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Soviet communists were as anti-science as any theists, nothing which could possibly call their ideology into question was permitted.

    The reasons communism has been doomed to failure at every place and time it has been attempted are to do with human nature not atheism. Some communists were theists.

    Of course we now see your chum Putin encouraging the revival of religion in Russia, it suits his purposes very well.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    I know nothing of the sites you site, or the narratives for that matter. I prefer to think for myself.

    My own belief is that most people, be they Christian or not, believed the earth was flat in medieval times. Some Christians (and probably some non Christians) believed the world to be round. But, they did not know their belief was correct until the Magellan voyage proved it.

    Christians proved the earth is round and most of us accept that. But I take your point, foolish beliefs like communism for example, are still adhered to by some.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    "My own belief is that most people, be they Christian or not, believed the earth was flat in medieval times"

    So you've just decided that was the case without proof? Are we debating with figments of your imagination?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Well yes, eternal salvation for every soul in Russia is a good and kindly aspiration. I only wish Leo had as much concern for us.

    Sorry to disabuse you but communists do think science and not God is the way forward. Global warming and the threat of nuclear war suggest that knowledge is dangerous without the wisdom of God to contain and guide it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Every belief has a source but you need not concern yourself with mine. So do you disagree with my belief.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Just couldn't be arsed arguing with someone who states something as if it was fact then admits they've no basis on which to state it.

    FWIW, what I believe; I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,741 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    Wrong again in stating that Christians proved that the earth is round, it was actually proven by people of other faiths also.

    You are also, to be polite, contradicting yourself again in your first sentence.

    As for foolish beliefs, yes some people do hold them, you can see multiple examples of their beliefs online, such as rants about the IMC, Russia being a Christian country, denial of abuse by religious groups, vaccination etc.

    But it isn't always foolishness it can be unfortunately just expressions of their poor mental health or just how they are made.



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