Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Yes, and you also said that all Israel is doing now with its bombardment is guaranteeing a new generation of Hamas (or its replacement) Martyrs. And yes, I agree with you. But not only that, Hamas is still launching attacks on Israel, and I don't believe that Israel will stop until at least some weeks go by without any Hamas attacks. But now, Palestinians are riding on a scale of support worldwide, that they never had before. And by extension, the justice you mention may have a real chance of materializing. But if the scenario you envisage comes to pass, with revenge attacks on Israel, then the Palestinians will have lost the high moral ground, and it will become Business as usual, or in other words, which came first? the chicken or the egg?

Unfortunately, Israel's reputation in the last 4 weeks in particular has taken a nosedive judging by interactions I have had with friends and colleagues. Initially after the Hamas barbaric attack, there was a huge outpouring of sympathy for Israel. I think also that Ireland in general would have more in common with Israel due to its western outlook and values and there would a concern that some extremists exists among Islamists. I honestly think amongst a more secular Ireland that very, very few would have religious issues with Jews. Somehow, bizarrely, Israel has somehow managed to turn public opinion against it. Netanyahu, various Israeli spokespeople, the disproportionate attacks, the seeming lack of empathy, the images of flattened buildings, injured and dead women and children, people living in tents, all these have contributed to this. Israel, for its own sake, if not for humanitarian reasons, has to change its approach. Of all nations in the world, you would think Israel would have more compassion

But if the IDF do not occupy these places you and they claim they have control of, when this operation ends, what happens then? They instantly lose control.

I dont care if you are anti- Hamas, I am Anti -Hamas. I also dont think it matters if you have lived in that part of the world for many years that doesnt make you are less of a chance of being totally biased in favour of the Palestinians or the Israelis.

Yes, you would think that, but when all is said and done, it's the Middle East, and as they say, things are done differently there, and I mean that in the best possible way.

Ok, so the NY times says Israel bombed safe areas. I don't disbelieve it, why not, ? If Hamas move to these safe areas too? I'm not in the slightest condoning it in any shape or form. And for sure, Israel have bombed multi-apartment blocks in the Centre of Gaza in the belief that Hamas members were living in them. So yes, it most likely happened.

So far, here on boards, there's been 870 pages and 26082 posts wrangling over the very points you mention, especially when you think of the context, all 2'000 years of it. That in my opinion is very important. But I can assure you that when very experienced diplomats, and specialists in politics in that part of the world, have so far been unable to solve the problem, I haven't a hope of a snowball in hell of doing it. So, your opinion and solution suggestions are every bit as valid as anyone else's. And maybe even better than many.

Sudden Valley, I'm stating it as I see it. I had no hand act or part in how the situation developed into what it is now in the present time. But you have managed to convert that into support for Israeli military response? Now that takes some doing, for sure!! How did you manage to do that? Obviously, you read the situation different to me, but please explain how you have arrived at the conclusion that I support Israel??? And the killing of innocent civilians? I don't, for sure, but just how do you suggest that I (or anyone else) stop the killings?

Indeed, I have seen a lot of people say on social media that after October 7th they supported Israel and its right to go after Hamas. Things began to change though after weeks of relentless bombing and horrific images of children being pulled from the rubble etc. The IDF's non stop lying and use of misinformation and the extremely aggressive and confrontational tone of Israeli spokespeople and diplomats hasn't helped them a jot either. Many of these people say they have now abandoned support for Israel and have come to see Palestinians as the real victims.

I've seen many commentators suggest Israel has scored a quite spectacular own goal here, possibly one that may take decades to recover from. They had all of the moral high ground and major sympathy right after October 7th, but have blown it with their insane three month orgy of revenge and violence (something Netanyahu says could go on for many more months yet).

Absolutely, that's the case. Remember when buildings in the US and Europe were lit up in blue and white colours in solidarity with Israel, that won't be happening anytime soon as it will show support for Israel's mass bombing of innocent civilians.

So Israel is the only belligerent in any war in history that is not allowed to cause collateral damage? Why are you singling out Israel? How exactly is Israel supposed to fight a mortal enemy with one hand tied behind their proverbial back?

My 2 cents on the '47 borders FWIW is that they are totally impractical today. Firstly, the Jewish state called for in the '47 plan would only work for an Israel that had little or no security concerns. Obviously, that proved to be somewhat optimistic, to say the least. The second reason is that Israel had to suddenly accept waves of Jewish refugees from other parts of the Middle East and North Africa, which the leadership of Israel hadn't planned on.

In fact, there were more Jewish refugees fleeing the rest of the MENA region than Arab refugees fleeing during the so-called Nakba. Most of the Jewish refugees went to Israel and became citizens - and they are, as well as their descendants, native the MENA region. Ideally, the all the displaced Arabs should have gone to the countries that the Jews had left in a population exchange.

And don't underestimate the impact of geography on all of this, Israel's geography is absolutely horrifying for a country that is always on defence against neighbours waiting for a chance to annihilate them. And a country with so many mortal enemies (Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, ISIS, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Western Left among others) cannot afford to ignore military geography.

With respect, this is such a Western Armchair General comment.

What is the point in having the “moral high ground” if your citizens are being kidnapped and killed and your citizens are afraid? Israel had to act.

How far and in what manner is certainly up for debate but wallowing in self pity and moral sympathy from people in Ireland etc (who enjoy the protection of NATO and the UK and have never in living memory had to defend themselves against multiple enemies) wouldn’t really have helped Israel.

Yes, because the majority of refugees who had to flee during and after '47/'48 were Jewish. About 900,000 Jews fled the MENA region with 650,000 settling in Israel. The Nakba, by contrast, affected 700,000 in all.

Nakba is a meme created by BDS and used in their worldwide campaign to delegitimize Israel.