Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Sam Russell · 27-12-2023 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121538703#Comment_121538703

Mod: One stop you should consider is to stop taking this thread off topic.

spacetweek · 27-12-2023 11:41am

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/12/27/michael-mcdowell-before-the-metrolink-juggernaut-becomes-a-money-pit-lets-pause-and-look-at-alternatives/

With weary familiarity the IT has published another anti-ML piece, this time written by former minister Michael McDowell. By their standards it’s quite mild and only the final 2 paragraphs are laughable, but still, we need better leadership on projects such as these. Maybe the occasional piece explaining the routing, why it can’t be done with Luas, the journey possibilities and how great the user experience is going to be?

This bit is good news though:

”An Bord Pleanála is shortly to commence public hearings on the National Transport Authority’s plan to build Metrolink.”

I hope it’s very soon. I’m still folornly holding a candle to them starting construction at the end of 2024.

Idbatterim · 27-12-2023 11:51am

absolutely laughable, like you say above, a 15 billion euro project or more possibly and they cant spend a few thousand, just writing off this nonsense in the media now? on street running, is out of the equation... Whatever about reducing the spend, which is a waste of time now, but even if this is cancelled and they want to redesign the wheel... AGAIN! on street running is out as a cost saver... end of...

Dublin metro 3 when it is announced, after metrolink is cancelled, here is how they will sell it as an "upgrade" they will link it to the northern line, they will put way more of it above surface on the nothern end, this will save billions on paper. Then we can waste another ten years, cost will be the same as the metrolink scheme...

prunudo · 27-12-2023 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540036#Comment_121540036

Behind a paywall, but laughable that McDowell complains about delays yet it is him and his ilk who are largely behind hurdles to infrastructure and have cause countless delays to Metrolink, Dart upgrades and Bus connects.

KrisW1001 · 27-12-2023 12:42pm

It was his party that delayed Luas by 2 years because they wanted it run underground ... but if I'm cynical, I could say "because they didn't want it at all"

Idbatterim · 27-12-2023 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540237#Comment_121540237

if it had been run underground, it would have taken billons off the cost of metrolink... it could have just connected around north OCS, rather than needing the severak km longer tunnel as currently planned...

Sam Russell · 27-12-2023 1:32pm

M McD brings up Thornton Hall Prison project as a beacon of good planning under his stewardship - cannot remember when that prison opened - anyone know?

He cited the building of an office block in Templemore for the Gardai Training College as another good example of his stewardship. Really? Is this even relevant to any infrastructure, let alone a complex multi-multi billion euro project like Metrolink?

Why does he not suggest Dublin Bikes start offering tandems so the cyclists could offer to take a passenger? It would be cheaper than a Luas.

Cheap does not cover his ideas. He wants a cheaper Luas to replace the Swords to the Airport. Of course, that would mean Metrolink does not impinge on his property in Ranelagh.

prunudo · 27-12-2023 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540374#Comment_121540374

I've said it before, but opinion pieces, whether written by public representatives or not, should be obliged to state any vested interests in regards to the piece they are contributing. There is a cosy cartel amongst the media and establishment which has negatively impacted on many infrastructure projects.

The IT is constantly attacking Metrolink, through opinion pieces and negative articles.

Sierra Oscar · 27-12-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540462#Comment_121540462

The vested interst is that the Irish Times readership is overwhelmingly based in south Dublin and they like to portray Metrolink as a 'North Dublin' project. It's cheap journalism to make some narrow minded south Dublin readers feel good about themselves for disliking Metrolink, blaming mismanagment and whatever else when the reality is they just don't like to see investment in a project that brings benefits to the northside. It's that simple, imho.

The Irish Times ciruclation has fallen so low they have stopped even publishing the circulation figures. Government don't take its views too seriously and neither should we.

spillit67 · 27-12-2023 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540694#Comment_121540694

This is made up.

The IT have always had a strange relationship with development. In fact most of the Irish media do.

Consonata · 27-12-2023 10:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540374#Comment_121540374

Fantastic poetic irony that, after him successfully lobbying to halt the Green Line link in, the underground terminus for Metrolink is now directly under his family home I believe.

https://x.com/transportdublin/status/1740065698083131482?s=20

L1011 · 27-12-2023 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542059#Comment_121542059

I always thought that was a rental property, "family" may mean its the kids there. Either way, that property has been an obvious reason for some of his campaigning and the media never, ever mention it.

That he's funding The Currency (the loan note) needs to be made more obvious too.

gjim · 27-12-2023 11:17pm

Regarding the O'Connell St ML/Luas interconnection, the original "preferred route" for the Green Luas "cross-city" extension was much simpler and nearly 80m cheaper in the option estimates - and was to run both directions down Westmoreland St and both sides of the O'Connell St median - a completely sane and reasonable set-up compared to the needless complexity of splitting the directions along two separate paths. DCC had wanted a new bridge for buses - what is now the Rosie Hackett - but didn't want to pay for it so fought tooth and nail for a more complex option and the RPA - as it was then known - for expediency came up with "Option F" which is what was delivered and bundled the cost of the bridge into the Luas cross-city budget in order to get DCC on-side. One result is that the Red stop has to be where it is on lower abbey st to allow access to Marlborough and O'Connell stops. If the original preferred option had been built then a much simpler and better connection between red and green lines could have been provided and there would have been more flexibility - the Red stop could be moved west to improve ML interchange without making the Green Luas connection much worse.

Consonata · 27-12-2023 11:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542145#Comment_121542145

Option F allows turnback @ Parnell for South -> North services though which is a decent plurality of services.

gjim · 28-12-2023 12:01am

Modern tram systems don't need loops for turn-back. Old-style trams only had doors one side - so loops were required at the end of lines. Modern trams (like Luas) have doors on both so do not have to go around in a loop to change direction - a simple cross switch works. Before the cross-city extension, we had turn-back at Stephens Green without any loops.

L1011 · 28-12-2023 12:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542293#Comment_121542293

Plenty of modern systems are still single-sided - Amsterdam has actually moved towards single-sided trams in recent decades, bar one line, but they also do lots of other inexplicable things (on-board ticket offices).

gjim · 28-12-2023 12:44am

By "modern", I mean built from scratch in the last 40 or 50 years. But yeah, if the tracks and loops are already there, then there isn't much point in paying for extra doors on newer rolling stock which will never be used because of the route topology.

But in any case, Luas trams are bidirectional so don't require a loop to turn-back.

bk · 28-12-2023 1:54am

You know it is funny, only earlier today I was thinking that a solution to all of this, would be if they simply ran a second south bound Green line Luas track down O’Connell Street and move the Red Luas line stop to the West side of OCS, behind Arnotts.

South bound Luas stop at GPO, so now the Red Luas stop at Arnotts is only 50 meters from both Green line stops at GPO
Second south bound Luas stop at OCS Upper across from the Metrolink station, so only 20 meters away, rather then 220 meters away at Parnell Square
Red Luas stop at Arnotts now slightly closer to the Metrolink station (350m versus 450m), but more importantly, no need to cross OCS and no pedestrian crossings between the two.
Red Luas stop closer to Henry Street, with no pedestrian crossings, which let’s be honest, is where the majority of the users of the Abbey St Luas stop are going too.

On the last point it is a pity that the Arnotts Northern Quarter development never happened, the plan included a new pedestrian retail street between this location of Middle Abbey Street and Henry street, which would have been perfect for connectivity. Instead it looks like they are going to build a **** hotel there now. On the upside, it seems they are going to remove 150 car parking spaces from the Arnotts car park, which should reduce the number of cars using Prince’s Street.

This would all greatly improve the connectivity between the red, green Luas lines and Metrolink.

This would put the Red Luas stop just 350 meters from the Metrolink stop.

BTW the distance between the current Red Luas stop on abbey street and the Metrolink station is 450 meters.

Interestingly that isn’t even a usual connection distance for the Red Luas line. At the next stop at Busaras, the distance between the Luas at Busaras and the DART platforms in Connolly Station is also about 450 meters and slightly further along at Docklands Station, the distance to the Luas stop is 500 meters. People make these connections every day.

Though I do think we should try and make reasonable changes to improve connectivity.

Testcard · 28-12-2023 7:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542080#Comment_121542080

And of course the Currency features Colm McCarthy as a writer…

AngryLips · 28-12-2023 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542145#Comment_121542145

How much of this is based in fact? Given that the Luas red line Abbey Street stop was conceived before plans for Luas cross city were finalised.

gjim · 28-12-2023 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542799#Comment_121542799

Why would the prior existence of the Abbey St stop suggest anything I wrote was made up?

I've said that the Abbey stop has to be where it is - it cannot be moved - because of the Green line cross-city route, not that it was constructed after BX. During the consultation phase for the cross-city route selection - we were presented with options A to E - none of which involved splitting the line. Option F - the selected option - was added later and immediately selected without consultation - effectively a back-room deal between the RPA and DCC. It was literally the worst of all the options - from the cheapest, shortest and most logical/simple direct extension down Westmoreland/O'Connell to the longest, most expensive option which involved swinging around the back of Trinity via Westland Row but at least offered DART integration.

Unfortunately the original options document seems to have disappeared from web but even at the time, on this very forum, people were complaining that the selected route was a dog's dinner: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/66541176/#Comment_66541176

AngryLips · 28-12-2023 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542882#Comment_121542882

You said that the result of the cross city routing is that the Abbey Street stop on Red luas is located where it is. But that's not the case because the stop was built before cross city route was chosen.

bk · 28-12-2023 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542959#Comment_121542959

Which frankly makes the choose location even more stupid.

gjim · 28-12-2023 11:40am

No I didn't say that - read it again. Literally I said "One result is that the Red stop has to be where it is on lower abbey st to allow access to Marlborough and O'Connell stops." - and this was in the context of a discussion of how to improve ML and Luas integration and the possibility of rearranging Luas stops.

I.e. that there is NO option to move the Red line stop - because of the BX/D routing choice.

You're reading of this sentence is that I'm claiming that the Abbey St stop was build where it is because of the BX/D routing - which we can both agree would be patent nonsense given the timelines involved.

bk · 28-12-2023 11:48am

I.e. that there is NO option to move the Red line stop - because of the BX/D routing choice.

I wouldn’t actually say that, you could move the Red Luas stop to outside Arnotts and the Marlborough stop while further would still be within a reasonable distance.

The Marlborough stop would then be 200 meters from a possible Abbey Street stop.

To put that in context, the Metrolink to Arnotts stop would then be 350 meters rather than 450 meters. And the Metrolink to Parnell street south bound would be 230 meters.

You would be trading a slightly worse red/green line integration for a better red line/Metrolink integration. I assume much more folks would use the latter than the former. So it might be a trade worth make.

Of course ideally also move the Southern green line to OCS for the best option.

spillit67 · 28-12-2023 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542713#Comment_121542713

The Currency are probably the most pro infrastructure and residential media org in the country.

Have a read of Sean Keyes stuff, or Ronan Lyons. Or Stephen Kinsella.

https://thecurrency.news/articles/126454/sean-keyes-on-investing-the-investments-we-dont-make/

https://thecurrency.news/articles/102736/stephen-kinsella-how-to-fix-irelands-infrastructure-deficit/

Tell me any other media organisation that has this level of detailed discussion on these topics.

The Currency has lots of mini investors because it needed start up financing. One of those was going to be a certain other media investor but they were smart enough to reject that. McDowell deserves criticism for the quality of that piece but he is a democratic and does like good quality debate. I can disagree with McCarthy too but it doesn’t mean it is a conspiracy.

Brightlights66 · 28-12-2023 3:29pm

From about 2:14 into this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOOuh7e6r4&t=180s

4 sets of lights, between the LUAS and the proposed metro entrance, that I can see.

ArmaniJeanss · 28-12-2023 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543784#Comment_121543784

But pedestrians going Red Line to/from Metro won't have to use all 4 - they will only have to cross the road once at their single chosen set of traffic lights.

AngryLips · 28-12-2023 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543784#Comment_121543784

I've heard this before

bk · 28-12-2023 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543784#Comment_121543784

Wow! LMAO

You claimed the following:

There is a set of lights at Upper/Middle Abbey Street, a set of lights at Henry St/North Earl St., a set of lights at Cathedral Street, and a set of lights around the proposed metrolink entrance.

There are no lights at any of these junctions, here are screenshots from Google maps:

First The Abbey Street Luas Stop, note you can cross the street by the Luas stop without pedestrian lights just at the Luas platform. Note the sort of zebra crossing on the right hand side and the white lines on left .

Next up Sackville Place, note no pedestrian lights:

Next up North Earl street, no pedestrian lights (walking North): BTW this one is particularly funny as North Earl street is a pedestrian street, so I’ve no idea how you thought there would be pedestrian lights crossing here:

Finally Cathedral Street, no pedestrian lights walking North :

And for bonus points, on the West side of OCS, Prince Street North, again no pedestrian lights:

So again to be clear, there is only one set of pedestrian lights a person walking between the red Luas stop on Abbey Street and the Metrolink station would need to cross. Basically the only lights are where ever you decide to cross OCS, either at Abbey Street, across by the spire or further up by the Metrolink.

Don’t get me wrong, I think this connection can definitely be improved, but it isn’t as bad as you are claiming.

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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