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Gangland Shootings part 4 - Read OP before posting - updated 30/12/23

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,921 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    How is a Garda sitting in a one man station longer going to stop burglaries?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,160 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    I just find it hard to imagine why anyone would want to be in the gardai

    Between paperwork and arresting the same people over and over only to see them walk must be both infuriating and a horrible feeling of inability to be effective

    I wish I had some idea to tackle this but I've got nothing depressingly



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    Because you don’t have to do the job really if you don’t want to. you are, to an extent, you’re own boss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Call me cynical, but you could be forgiven for thinking this is an attempt to maintain traffic when the biggest story of the year is no longer permitted to be discussed 😜



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,160 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    I hear ya, possibly not the best post but I am just loving the use of airbnb as some form of base of operations

    Also it's the only gang/criminal thing I have read lately that could be discussed here



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,160 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    To be fair that's old. These days the off-putting elements are low pay and the gsoc department making very delayed investigation type stuff inevitable

    I've no gra for them but I can see how messy it all is



  • Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭Cheddar Bob


    Alright. Moving on. Or back.


    Was listening to a repeat of a Tallant 4 parter on the Regency there and was reminded of something that bugged me during the trial.


    Jonathan Dowdall, his da, and the hotel booking.

    The hotel room was booked so as to allow Kevin Murray (Flat Cap) a base to let him reccy the layout of the hotel before the attack (pre trial there was wild theories that, as a qualified spark/ CCTV installer, Dowdall had been in messing about with the CCTV systems, but as far as I know that was nonsense).

    Why in the jaysis did Dowdall use his card (or his father's, or wife's, can't recall now) to book the room in his dad's name, and then have his father collect the key the night before?

    The organiser of the operation (not G Hutch, he was completely innocent as decicded by a judicial panel har har har) would surely know post attack that the guards would trawl the CCTV and the bookings and see that a best mate of Patsy Hutch who lived 4 odd miles away had booked a hotel room the night before (a hotel room that CCTV presumably showed Flat Cap entering the next day, sealing the connection), which would be stretching the bounds of coincidence and bad luck to a serious level.

    Flat Cap was dying and (presumably) took the job on to leave a fat wedge for his family knowing he was too ill to ever face trial or remand. Why didn't he book the room himself and collect the keycard? The effort he put into disguising himself shows he had little fear of going down for any of it.

    If that wasn't an option, just pay an old local alco/ gambling addict with no real record to book it, some eejit who the Gardai would know full well wouldn't be privy to the seriousness of what was about to go down, and thus wouldn't find themselves facing serious charges at all (he could claim he was told it was for something mad like a swingers orgy or a porno being filmed, but that he was now too scared to tell who put him up to it). Or a foreigner who was permanently leaving the country soon.


    Dowdall used that to his defence, why would I be mad enough to use my own card (or was it the wife's) to book a room if I knew what was about to go down.


    It was about the only part of his defence that made a bit of sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,517 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    It's the interest of any police force that people don't form their own rival police force. Gets messy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Many areas in Rural ireland have seen their garda stations closed by Alan Shatter and Fine Gael in 2013 and have become lawless since be it travellers robbing houses , selling drugs etc etc or most other people driving round on their phones … zero law now with garda stations 20 or 30 miles away from people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    I dont see why its the States problem? why should they pay?



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  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,161 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Latest threadbans:

    UrbanFret

    Hoboo

    fire_man



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,131 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Jean Boylan (now deceased) was Christy's first wife - the mother of Daniel and Jnr.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Id imagine Dowdall didnt know exactly what was going to happen. He couldnt have. Tallant done a really good job of laying out all the info we had and lined it all up.

    I still think Ger will get whats coming to him. Just a question of by whom and when.

    Dowdall is now a wanted man by both sides. Although with the kinahanas nearly finished he might be ok. Ger wont go near him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 345 ✭✭40supple


    I know compadré

    The liberal laws in western democracies are quite bizarre

    I remember hearing in the media of a child who had a panic attack on hearing his mother died in a car accident successfully sued the driver of the car that caused the accident, the child was sitting at home playing while the accident happened miles away and was awarded thousands of €

    or the tennent who successfully sued her landlord because she tripped and fell in her OWN sitting room



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Clinton McCormack buried today. A serious stroke of bad luck for him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭Spencer101


    Working from memory and it’s 9+ months since evidence but trial told something like Patsy Hutch had no credit card. Dowdall paid for sundry Hutch expenditure that needed a credit card and was given money back in cash. So in that context as starting point could have stuck to line that he often ran such errands for Hutch and it was none of his business why a hotel room was needed. Did part of evidence not include Dowdall suggesting at some point he thought room was so Patsy could meet a female ‘friend’ ? But likely the recordings en route to North made that claim of ignorance pretty hard to bring home. As to why someone else didn’t book the room the day before they emigrated/ some ‘wino’ one or more of below may arise:-

    (a) Stupidity;

    (b) A desire to keep a limited number of people known to Hutch OCG involved with a belief that Dowdall could bluff his way out of trouble.

    (c) A deliberate tactic to throw Dowdall under bus and/or also link attack to republicans;



  • Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Ninap


    What was the ‘previously undiagnosed medical condition’?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭knucklehead6




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,312 ✭✭✭secman


    A very good turnout, funeral was in Gorey. Reported to be about 400 at the funeral.



  • Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭1968


    Do people think that he would have died on that same date if the shooting hadn't of happened? It just seems like a huge coincidence that he's shot (in the legs), brought to hospital and then dies one week later of an undiagnosed brain tumour.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 345 ✭✭40supple


    Not a hope he would of, probably 1 year left with an untreated tumour

    but legal argument could conclude that he died of the tumour and not the gunshots, it was just a coincidence that he died a week after been shot

    during the H block escape in 1983 a prison officer died from cardiac arrest after being stabbed with a chisel, during autopsy it was established that he had a heart condition and could of had the cardiac arrest at any time and was just a coincidence it happened after been stabbed

    the defense won and perpetrator wasn’t convicted on manslaughter but only wounding

    Post edited by 40supple on


  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Munstergirl854


    What are the chances a hitman would miss (as in only leaves his victim injured not dead) and then gets a call a week later to say hes actually dead from an undiagnosed brain tumour and will be listed as natural causes.

    While a month later,another armed hitman shoots a person in a busy restaurant but ends up beaten shot and stabbed himself.

    If this was an episode of KIN we would call it far fetched and laughable.

    Mad stuff altogether Ted.

    In all seriousness I hope it doesnt kickstart another round of killings that leaves a bloodbath in 2024.

    The Christmas Eve shooting is reminding me of the tension around the Regency.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Theres no way the wicklow hit was botched. Those lads dont make mistakes. They meant to shoot him in the legs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,015 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I heard similar, travellers stealing a high powered car and parking it in a country village, and use the car to rob houses and then they leave the car behind and get collected



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭RoosterCogburn


    An active Gardai station in the area would possibly act as deterrent to a small degree, the possibility of catching burglars in the act is increased e.g someone if hits a panic alarm the Gardai don't have to travel 20 minutes to get there and people don't feel as isolated and vulnerable

    In rural Ireland people had a good relationship with local Gardai and it worked well for both, if someone's young lad was in the wrong crowd a Guard would go and talk to the parents first and use some discretion, people appreciated that and would help the Gardai if they needed information



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    The idea of having a local station is gone now i'd say

    The patrol cars are on the road alright locally but they'd be depending on armed support for tackling these gangs



  • Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭Cheddar Bob


    Neither his conversations in the car nor his alleged meeting with GH in the park the day after correspond to this line of reasoning.

    Was it a case of GH told JD to book a room but figured he surely wasn't daft enough to book it or collect the key using the card/ anybody remotely connectable to himself? And big brains just ploughed ahead?


    Dowdall doesn't to my knowledge ever mention any sort of financial payment for booking the room, making contact with the dissidents etc etc.


    You could argue NCH and Mago took part out of loyalty (although I'm sure they got a payment regardless, and NCH would be hungry for a few quid given his drug habit).


    But Dowdall was a mate of PH but hardly as close a one as Mago was to GH. I'm friendly with lads 18 years older than me, but not to the extent I'd take part in a murder conspiracy for free for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭Cheddar Bob


    I think it was actually Dowdall told Gardai his dad might have had a bird on the side, or even a fella I recall him wisecracking haha. And that's why he was in the hotel.


    Was he daft enough to think that excuse would wash? Maybe if they'd booked a room several times over the months prior (impossible- I doubt the boxing presser was booked that far in advance).


    Or CCTV wise they could have backed up his story by hiring a brazzer to be seen on CCTV going to the room and spending the night there. Few of these foreign ones actually live here permanently, she would never be tracked down.


    The claim that he spent years booking flights, gig tickets and whatever else for Patsy Hutch also didn't wash with me. It was 2015/16, not 2003 when you would go annoying your only mate who had a credit card.


    And why would Patsy use JD for this anyway- even if he isn't allowed cards by the banks because of debts or whatever, he had three kids who were living in Dublin (outside of prison) and a wife- surely any of these are an easier option for an online purchase rather than driving up to Navan Rd to get it done?


    IIRC it was belived at the time the operation involved at least 12, 13 people.

    Both Dowdalls. The Paymaster.

    5 gunmen- Kevin Murray confirmed. Alleged- PH (acquitted on a technicality), NCH, Mago and one other for who several names have been suggested.

    Two drivers, convicted- Jason Bonney, Paul Murphy.

    Was alleged from memory to be five getaway drivers in total waiting at the GAA grounds, one for each gunman. The late Neddie Hutch alleged to have been one of them. The courts have also accused PH of being involved.


    That there is 12 men. Whether either of the Dowdalls, or the Paymaster, was alleged to be a driver as well, I don't know.


    Either way it seems the Dowdalls were the only men involved who were never of any prior serious criminal pedigree, which makes them a strange choice to involve given they'd be more afraid of prison than anybody else in the operation.

    Post edited by Cheddar Bob on


  • Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭Cheddar Bob


    From RTE

    "Referring to Brendan Grehan’s suggestion that it was Patsy not Gerard Hutch who collected the room keycard from him and his father, he said "your client is willing to throw his own brother under the bus, Gerard got the card your honour"."

    This was another bit I found very strange. Wasn't Grehan, under instruction from his client, introducing PH as a suspect? Is there any way PH would see this and think it's just part of the game? What if JD suddenly cracked during this piece of testimony and shouted out "alright alright look, that night it was Patsy I gave the keys to but so what, I still met GH in the park 2 days later and he told me he was a gunman, who cares".

    Or were they all playing the long game, luring JD into making such a fool of himself he could never be taken seriously in any future prosecution of Patsy? (though you might argue on a professional level Grehan has no interest in getting PH off the hook as he isn't his client, but then again GH was paying from his own pocket so he can have him do what he likes?)

    May that have been the plan- using a stressed JD to start shouting allegations against PH in the court, but then making him look like such an eejit that nothing he said about PH could ever be taken seriously?

    If you type "Gerry Patsy hutch rift" into Google there are numerous stories about how they apparently hadn't met up since his release, but I could swear I'd seen stuff since showing he was in the company of either him or some of the sons. Not to mention I doubt the likes of Mago would have much time for GH any more if he felt he had sold PH out to save himself.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 43 boredyooser


    The one thing I learnt from this is to take a bit more care out there. Normally I guess I would crack a joke with a Timothy. Now I'm going to give lads called things like Crispin, Cecil, Tarquin a bit of a wide berth. What happened to good honest names like Damo and Ando. At least you knew where you were. It;s getting confusing out there.



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