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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭drop table Users


    It’s interesting how some (ahem) are demanding detailed war plans and exact commitments

    While ignoring that the Russian side they cheer for still hasn’t produced war plans or coherent justifications several Years into the Three Day war they started

    And continue to make wild claims on thread without offering a shred of evidence to backup said claims



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,348 ✭✭✭✭Vicxas


    Does the Ukraine have the capacity to make their own shells? Would they even bother if it would constantly be targeted



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Odd. I've been in S3/G3 positions long enough to know how much of the planning is done by enlisted vs officers, and I can't say I agree with your assessment which is supported by....?

    I would also be curious to hear why you think that the Soviets, Chinese and Albanians were wrong when they decided to revert back to a rank structure which included officers and enlisted. Surely after having actually tried going the other way, they would be best placed to make the determination from practical experience as to just how needed the positions are for effective operations?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    You haven't been able to explain anything so far including how a respected military officer and historian is wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They recently set up new production lines for western artillery shells ,but capacity and protection is the biggest issue,they are blowing through a serious amount of artillery per week,much more than they or the EU can realistically produce in short periods



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  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭drop table Users


    Meanwhile in the land of endless manpower and equipment




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,743 ✭✭✭zv2


    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭rogber


    Dictators have survived a lot longer than Putin in countries much poorer as well. We'd all love to see him fall but he's been there nigh on 20 years already and I wouldn't be surprised to see him cling on for quite a few years more



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭rogber


    I wasn't even responding to that, you're twisting things around



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,743 ✭✭✭zv2


    ???


    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



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  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭drop table Users




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Some deliveries from Berlin


    1x Skynex air defense system

    - 10x Marder 1A3 IFV

    - 2x Hensoldt TRML-4D air surveillance radar units

    - Undisclosed number of IRIS-T SLM Missiles

    - Undisclosed number of Leopard 2 ammunition

    9000 artillery shells.

    More trucks

    305 Haenel MK 556 rifles aka H&K 416...

    The skynex is probably the most interesting delivery it's an anti aircraft gun geared towards which can be ground or truck based depending what they delivered pretty new system I previously posted about on here



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Not really a surprise. I wonder are they any better than their shells?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,280 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I've been in similar situations, and the level of planning tends to be very broad strokes. Anything pertaining to actual operations being handled on the lower level. Fires, logistical support, air coordination, all regulary the remit of enlisted or contractors. There's no special sauce involved that necessities an officer corps, it doesn't take OCS to send emails or populate trackers.

    A system based on meritocracy, competence and experience would be far preferable to one that pushes individuals into positions of authority based on nothing more than a college degree. It's telling that the most capable sof units are NCO driven and largely free from officers.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    "Very broad strokes"?

    Mate, unless your similar situation involves something like a division or corps level operation against an intelligent adversary in a rapidly moving 24/7 environment, I submit you are making unfounded assumptions. If you think populating trackers is what the plans cell does, for example, you have absolutely no conception of what goes on in a military HQ and your statements have zero credibility.

    I fully accept that small scale units can operate without officers. Assignments there, however, are learning experiences to give a grounding for when the officers move up to higher level. The meat and potatoes of officer work is at field grade, not line units.

    I note you have also not addressed the question of why countries which have attempted to abandon ranks have reversed course after experience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    If anyone's looking for the source of that, here it is:

    What I find interesting is that Germany has also increased its commitment for IRIS-T SLM systems from five to nine, and also promised another Skynex system in addition to the one that was delivered. While there's certainly an argument to be made that the pace of deliveries is to slow, the fact that Germany keeps sending top-of-the-line equipment to Ukraine is something that I wasn't expecting from Berlin.

    It's also worth pointing out that, according to Jane's, the Skynex system delivered to Ukraine apparently consists of four truck-mounted gun systems, a command post and a radar, so a pretty potent package:


    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The 35 mm Oerlikon cannons have been around for decades as anti aircraft gun system, the latest skynex version was designed for the German Navy ships , but can be mounted to trucks or on semi permanent ground installations,



    Rheinmetall is making serious sales pitch over the last 12 months with there efforts in Ukraine and elsewhere



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,280 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The point is that there is nothing about the nature of the work, which is contingent on an entrenched hierarchical separation. Whatever skills are necessary to function in those roles are learnt. An officer starts off as a fairly useless addition to a unit and generally gets worse from there. All while being paid many times more than those actually doing the important work.

    I don't think it particularly relevant looking to examples from decades past, in countries with wildly different social and educational situations. The point is that now, today, the idea that an officer corps is necessary for the functioning of a unit is an outdated idea. Any role filled by the position of an officer could and often is accomplished by an enlisted person or warrant officer. The meat and potatoes, as you put it, is to exist in a political environment that is created by and which serves the propagation of the officer corp. Most field grades will have very little operational experience, especially nowadays with combat pretty hard to come by. These are the people who make the decisions which impact those who actually have to carry out the tasks involved in conducting warfare. The yawning chasm between those who sit in S/G shops quibbling over PowerPoints formats and those who do work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭drop table Users


    https://archive.ph/Tb31u

    The Pentagon is Trying to Rebuild the Arsenal of Democracy

    It’s not just one war or two. How do you fight three at once?

    By Jack Detch

    ——

    Interesting quote in there that EU companies already produce 600,000 to 700,000 shells per year by end of 2023

    The biggest problem remains of course not industrial (the arms industries are booming) but political, especially the Republicans dragging feet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,456 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I don't think the US really wants to be the arsenal of democracy any more -

    It seems to be entering a more isolationist phase , and not just trumpian republicans , hardly surprising considering the balls ups they made in iraq and Afghanistan,

    In a way their response in Ukraine may be a blip

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭drop table Users


    The US always had an isolationist side BUT one party actively wanting to dismantle the republic and install a dictator for life is new, which has repercussions far outside US and is discussed in other threads

    But time and time again something would happen that would highlight to Americans that head in sand stance doesn’t protect em (seem some but not all EU countries have realised this too now) and they go bananas

    Keep in mind that while Putin very much would like Trump back in power the Chinese very much would not and would be doing their own meddling and of course a lot of money now pouring into Hailey who is a classic neocon, but anyways I don’t want risking moving the thread off topic tho relevant to this war



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭RedXIV



    I wonder if this is capitalism at work rather than pure humanitarian support to a neighboring country? As @Gatling has pointed out, every time there is a package of X billion promised by the states, approx 80-90% of it remains in the nation as labour costs etc. War is big business and Rheinmetall is arguably best placed to establish itself as a new contender if military spending continues in this vein for the next few years. Even in Ireland, people are talking more about Defence budgets in the last few years, than they have in the last few decades prior. The Swiss industry has proven to have too many legal stipulations, so a strong available source in Europe could be a way for Germany to start pulling more power in the EU bloc back towards them, in a purely financial sense.

    Either way, a welcome development and great to see additional systems being delivered



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Watching the change of attitude of the German government (and the GOP-ian reaction of Germany's muscovite stooges) I've also been wondering if those Germans with a good sense of capitalism know that the very best investment they can make now is literal boots on the ground in Ukraine. I suspect they've realised that they can easily switch their now-embargoed dealings with Russia to the same-but-different Novorossiya/Ukraine.

    If that's the case, then Putin should realise that he's in a hell of a lot more trouble than his generals are (not?) telling him: it would suggest that decisions have already been made in the shadows of the corridors of power that Ukraine will be joining the EU and will be joining NATO, and no washed out KGB agent is going to stop it now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,743 ✭✭✭zv2


    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,145 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Governments and policy can change depending on public opinion, the US might be able to make the printing presses go whrrrr, not so much in the EU. A lot of people are going to balk at an opened obligation like this. Its not like the EU is on a financial roll , I dont think it would take much to shift public opinion when it comes to paying a price.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,551 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    If true, then holy crap



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,439 ✭✭✭jmreire


    And I guess that since Iran, China, N Korea et al, are supplying these weapons, they are getting paid for them (and they are not exactly cheap, and none of the A/M Countries are notable for their charitable endeavor's) Putin's piggy bank is running low at this point, and at some stage this arms supply will dry up too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    It's not true



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    The situation for Europe here is very different to the US. What is the potential cost to Europe/the EU of Ukraine being turned into a failed state, destroyed or even occupied by Russia I wonder? No idea how to calculate that one, maybe you do?

    What is the cost to Europe if we have a situation where Putin believes he has gained far more evidence the will won't be there to oppose him if or when he decides to gamble on stability of NATO and the value of US promises to members in coming years?

    Yes, a low likelyhood event, but one with human and material costs for Europe that would be staggering. Waging war on your own terrirtory is very bad (see Ukraine), no matter how it turns out in the end, and will make the cost of aid given to Ukraine now (+ costs of rebuilding the EU members militaries etc. to Cold War levels) look miniscule.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,145 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    If you are implying Putin would attack a NATO country, I dont see it. Its really down to what is negotiated and agreed for "west Ukraine"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



This discussion has been closed.
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