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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    But they are not scoring the person on their own faith, they are scoring the person on how they would teach faith

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Schools are rarely in a position of being flooded with candidates anyway these days



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,301 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Had kinda meant to say the same: I can't imagine schools have their pick of candidates when trying to get new teachers; sure a religious school might prefer someone who says all the right things but nor is the market so strong they can be discriminating either. If schools are anything like pre-school childcare there's a chronic shortage of teachers (heck there seems to be a chronic shortage of all vocations as our populations increase but that's another thread entirely)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,447 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    A teacher friend of mine was kinda talking about this to me the other day. When her and her college pals graduated around 2010, if you landed a job it was like winning the lotto.

    Now, they are literally crying out for teachers to apply.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    My children go to a Catholic school and id expect the teachers to be teaching some Catholic stuff, cant see anything wrong with that .

    If youir a teacher that doesnt like catholics why not go to a non religion or protestant school to teach ??



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because there are insufficient quantities of those in existence



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,344 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    We have now gone completely off topic from Enoch Burke, but at the same time, if you cannot see how pathetic that argument is in respect of National School - NATIONAL being the important word - then there is not a lot of chance of equality of belief/non belief. If you are referring to a private Catholic school then fair enough, no argument.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    Im talking about either a secondary or primary school , seems to be quite a few non religion secondary schools around . If the Catholic Church own the schools surely their entitled to have some form of a Catholic ethos in that school, most people where i live dont seem to have any issue with it.

    If i was planning to be a teacher and didnt like Catholics id move to where there are Protestant or Non Religion schools or else dont bother teaching if its that big an issue for a person. My broher lives in Birmingham and his children go to a catholic school and never heard of teachers there not wanting to teach there. Maybe theres more protestant & Muslim schools in Birmingham than here for non catholics to teach in .



  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭scottser



    To quote from the third of your articles:

    Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act provides for an exception to the general prohibition on discrimination on religious grounds. The exception allows a religious, education or medical institution to treat an employee more favourably than another employee, where it is reasonable to do so in order to maintain the religious ethos of the institution, or where it takes action which is reasonably necessary to prevent an employee or a prospective employee from undermining the religious ethos of the institution.

    The Court held that this section should be “ascribed a narrow orbit and it can only avail an employer where the conditions in which it is expressed to operate actually apply.” The Court held that the school “did not adduce any evidence on which it could be held that the canvassing of the private views of candidates for the post in issue on the question of religious patronage and pluralism was reasonable or necessary in order to maintain the religious ethos of the school”. The Court also found that there was no evidence to suggest that “whatever views the Complainant had on that topic would impact on her capacity to act in good faith and with loyalty to the school.”

    The article you posted outlining the Labour Court's position disproves your point completely.

    Thanks Renko - your investigative skills were always a bit lacking but hey, let's be careful out there.. :P





  • You’re basing yours on one school Andrew?

    im basing it on a teacher who’s interviewed with 5-6 schools at this stage.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Congrats on your cut/paste ability, but regardless of how many times you repeat things, it doesn't make them true.

    Teachers having to lie their way through interviews in religious schools is not a novel concept.

    Candidates literally were graded on their faith in the school that I was involved with. That's literally what happened, with the Chairperson reporting to the Board as to which candidates were seen as 'a good Catholic' (that's a literal quote from the Chairperson at the time.


    You seem a bit confused between the outcome of one particular case and the actual status of legislation, which is crystal clear.

    For every case that comes to the Labour Court or WRC, there's a hundred cases that don't, from candidates who choose to keep their heads down and not make a fuss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    How many Board of Management meetings did your teacher attend?





  • If you want your children to learn about catholic religion why don’t you do that in your own time instead of expecting the school to do it?





  • how many schools BOM’s have you been on? Because if it’s just one then I’m really done talking to you since you’ve decided to not touch on the irony of your previous argument.

    why is it not okay for me to use one teacher as an example but you’re free to use one school? If you can’t be arsed to elaborate on that then just leave me be because I’m not arguing in circles with you, especially when you are wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,329 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Do you really NOT know the answer to that question...??

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    The demographics are changing quickly (less and less catholics) but the Church ownsmost of the schools still. Something has got to give eventually. Aged nuns and priests interviewing people who are pretending to be religious to get a job. The last time they were in a Church was probably their confirmation, if even.

    It’s a charade

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I've been on two school BoMs, one a religious school, and later a non-religious school, after I had 'seen the light' as they say.

    A teacher who has never sat in a BoM meeting has only seen one side of the coin, and has no idea about the actual decision making process behind the scenes.

    You introduced the 'how many' question, which was fairly irrelevant. It's not about how many schools or how many teachers. It's about the legislation, the culture, the practices. I've given my specific experiences, and presented media and academic reports showing that others have similar experiences.



  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭scottser


    well buddy, you posted it to back up your point and it's clear that you're wrong. on many levels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Teachers having to lie their way through interviews in religious schools is not a novel concept.

    It is, when they don’t actually have to lie. The fact that some candidates DO lie however, is not a novel concept, and certainly not restricted to the realm of employment in education. I’m sure we can agree that we’ve both been privy to instances of candidates embellishing their answers in interviews regardless of the employer or the role they were interviewing for?


    Candidates literally were graded on their faith in the school that I was involved with. That's literally what happened, with the Chairperson reporting to the Board as to which candidates were seen as 'a good Catholic' (that's a literal quote from the Chairperson at the time.

    And like I said, I don’t doubt your claims of something which you were privy to. Where we’re running into an issue is at the point where you claim that what you experienced is generally applicable even to primary schools. It’s not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Because that’s what the school is established to do, so it stands to reason it would be expected that they do that.

    Parents aren’t obligated to choose between one or the other, and the fact that there is a shortage of schools of their particular preference is the responsibility of Government, not the Patrons of any particular organisation which provides education, and certainly not the responsibility of other parents.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Go back and read the case details. We have a nun, chairing an interview board, asking candidates about their views on matters that don't have the vaguest relationship with their ability to teach faith formation. This is what happens in the real world.

    There's a big difference between embellishing a role on a particular project and having to lie about a fundamental human value or belief. They're not in the same ballpark.

    I don't suppose you have any source for your claim that what I experienced is not generally applicable even to primary schools?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,301 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    2022 census said 68% were Catholic, and you could be damn sure many if not most wouldn't be practising. Like myself, probably were last at mass by intent decades ago. anecdotally but churches look half full, and mostly by grey heads.

    The majority of the country's schools being owned by the Catholic Church was a convenience when the state had neither funds nor nous to run out education; a much different world now. A much more diverse world at that, these catholic schools can't be the tails wagging the dog.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    id wonder where the church got the lands in the first place, I doubt too much was bought at a fair price with honestly earned money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    There are very, very few members of the clergy involved in Boards of Management. They are a dying breed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    I have interviewed hundreds of teachers. I have never sat on an interview panel where a candidate has been asked about their own personal faith, never mind being "marked" on it.

    However you clearly know best because you were once on a BOM.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I don't suppose you have any source for your claim that what I experienced is not generally applicable even to primary schools?


    Would I lie to you Andrew? 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Churches half full? They wish they were anything near to half full.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,581 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    'If i was planning to be a teacher and didnt like Catholics '

    🙄😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,581 ✭✭✭suvigirl




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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Panels for religious primary schools?

    Do you think that it's possible that different schools do things differently?



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