Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Mould and damp in attic space

  • 07-01-2024 4:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭


    Hey hey

    Just noticed a significant amount of mould on the attic storage boards, and the back of the roof membrane is damp!

    Recently did a home renovation.

    House was wrapped in external insulation. Attic was insulated at floor level with 300mm of rockwool.

    We had a mechanical heat recovery system installed. All ducts have been insulated with lagging.


    I've no idea where so much warm air is coming from, as it seems the insulation is sufficient, and the MHRV properly insulated. I'll attach a few snaps.

    The moisture is dripping down and some ceiling joists getting damp now.




«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    So whats the ventilation like in the attic space? Have you sealed everything up?

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭Sarn


    We noticed a similar issue in our attic a few years ago when the weather was cold. House all recently renovated and insulated, ended up getting roof vents installed and the problem was solved. Our neighbours also noticed a similar issue after getting their place insulated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 685 ✭✭✭Sonic the Shaghog


    Also do a check on your bathrooms and see if the extractor fans are just vented to the attic. You wouldn't believe the amount of plumbers, electricians etc that did it and claimed it was the done thing even up to 4 years ago



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    Thanks for reply. There are no traditional vents in the bathrooms, just vents from the mechanical heat recovery system. That is vented into roof vents so should be good. There is a lot of moisture up there!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    So how is that moisture going to get out? Is there good ventilation up there?

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    The vent in the wet rooms goes directly to the MHRV unit, which has a pipe leading to the outside. In terms of ventilation in the attic, it's a standard soffit with vents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭phelixoflaherty


    Check the attic door seal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Trying to resolve mould and damp is a tricky issue being honest. Ventilation is only a small part of the issue. Since you have had the attic insulated the temp has dropped dramitically in that space. So the warmer air below is now hitting colder surfaces up there which then results in condensation.

    Roof vents might be advised. But they may or may not solve the problen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    I mean preventing as much warm/moist air getting into the attic space while also increasing the ventilation up there has to be the path forward. If I leave this as is I'm going to have serious mould. As it is, we are only in 5 months and there is significant mould growing 🙄



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Its going to be an issue with the 2.

    Ventilation. Insulation.

    Insualtion should keep the attic dry.

    Ventialtion should let out moist air.

    In my experience its never been thay easy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 566 ✭✭✭gobo99


    Check that the rockwool is not blocking the vents in the soffit. If it is, pull it back a little at the vents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭KungPao


    It the damp localised or all over?

    I had something similar over my en-suite, where the attic flooring was damp in winter. In the end it was steam rising up through some small gaps in the ceiling light. I've since taped the hole around the cable.

    It may also be a soil pipe vent that terminates inside the attic, you have one? Hot water from showers can then rise up through this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Soffit vents may be covered with your rock wool. Make 100 percent sure they are free and open.

    Other than that. They may not be good enough to allow good airflow. You might need extra vent tile at the top to promote airflow soffit to vent pulling out the warm moist air.


    Finally mhrv. The roof venting of these is probably the worst method tbh it's the reason I avoided this type of exhaust ventilation in mine. I opted to go through gable wall. The warm exhaust air from your mhrv can cling to to the inside of your flue stack and fall back down.

    I would definitely have the exhaust of the mhrv checked both at the tile and down the exhaust pipe to unit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Do you have foil-backed plasterboard on the ceiling or standard paper-faced?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    No, as far as I'm aware it's standard plaster board.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    In relation to the soffit vents, our builder used pipes on all the gaps between joists that go down to the soffit. Because we have solar covering the south facing roof, adding vent tiles was not an option. So these plastic pipes were put in on both sides to endure insulation did not obstruct airflow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭Gusser09




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Then that's the probable path of the moisture as opposed to perforations in the foil/VCL if you had one fitted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Would need to understand the detailing here, it's unclear whether your new ewi or your rock wool, or both. Is impacting airflow. Was any of this a problem prior to the works?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭tom23


    Funny that... we got our attic insulated with the SEAI grant. And I've noticed a lot of condensation in the attic under the felt. The 'walkway' that was put was musty. I called the isolation company and they said thats to be expected and that they put in roof vents... still couldnt believe the amount of condensation...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    It's definitely not to be expected. Sole vents are useless unless there's supply . A 'flow' of air is required. Vent to vent. Soffit to vent is best. Or soffit to ridge even more superior.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭tom23


    so do I have a good reason to go back to them? they are reputable company and nice to deal with but am I been fobbed off?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    They should be checking the ventilation is working. Without adequate airflow then moisture cannot disappate.

    You may need more vents you may need soffits checked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭tom23


    I’ll drop them a mail tomorrow -

    thanks for the heads up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    Did installing the additional vents remove the condensation problem or the company is just proposing that the vents are added?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    It's not to be expected btw, by architect and builder have both said the attic should be bone dry and feel cold and breezy (like air moving not a freakin gale)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭tom23


    i took photos tonight - it doesn’t tell

    the full picture there’s a lot of condensation




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    That's a crazy amount of condensation alright. I'd guess that the very cold periods where there is little wind isn't helping matters as it's not driving the moisture out of the attic.

    Given that you have a MHRV system I'd wonder if you're not bleeding warm air into the attic at a loose junction?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    This is probably slightly worse than my problem. Had the MHRV guy out and he had a few practical tips. One of the steel boxes that connects the ducting was not covered in insulation, so would result in heat transfer, simple fix.

    He noted quite a large roll of CAT cable not currently in use but run from the warm house to the attic. I had it lying in the area where it had collected quite a lot of condensation. It's copper after all. He advised me to bury it in the insulation.

    My lift hatch seems to be the weak point tho. While it is insulated 36mm, r value of 1.1, the rest of the attic would be far higher. I've been advised to install a loft hatch cover to bring this area up to same r value as the rest of attic.

    Finally architect said let's do above, which is all cheap enough, and if we done kill the condensation look to improve ventilation.

    MHRV is basically an insulated box, and U are right I cannot rule out a damaged duct, but inspecting all of it would be troublesome. If above does not fix there are damp experts with flir cameras, that would be where we head next.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    I think I found the source.

    The pipe brings fresh air up from the soffit, but just underneath it you can see a silver insulated MHRV duct. Out of picture there is about a 1 foot length that goes down into the bathroom that is not insulated. Where the duct penetrates the roof is poorly sealed. There is a bit of spray foam but I can see gaps. It's a very hard area to access as it's right in the eaves, but we are looking at remediation to ensure warm/moist air ain't causing problems!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    If you're seeing a gap between the exhaust pipe and the soffit, then yes, that's a probable cause! Brilliant!

    I didn't want to to be too negative about what the installer told you yesterday (the copper CAT5 wire), but seeing condensation on the CAT isn't a cause of the high humidity, but is an indicator or symptom of the issue.

    Go chase the installer to correct that leak now. 👍️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    Yeah I guess his thinking was it's death by 1000 small cuts, but he didn't spend hours rooting through the soffits to find the smoking gun.

    The pipes likely need to be cut back, as well as trying to prevent the warm air ingress. There is talk of ridge vents also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Pure sub par workmanship. Really lazy stuff that especially an extraction zone rather than supply.

    One of the core reasons I went self install. I know every mm of the work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    So the steps to remedy.

    Builder built an insulated hood for the stairs. There is an airtight seal where the hatch door meets frame, so this is just to up the U value in this area compared to rest of the roof.

    We installed soffit vents to ensure in insulation was not restricting airflow.

    Finally all pipes for ventilation system were insulated. The attic has dried out since the first incident. Hoping with these upgrades we are all set to for coming cold snap 🤞



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    Good news. The next week where we have low temps and little wind will be a good test.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭tom23


    inposted about the condensation in my attic and had insulation company come out to look.

    a few problems.

    They wrapped rock wool around the en-suite extractor fan / flexi pipe and the weight of it pulled it form the vent.


    Also discovered a leak in the roof. coming in from velux window. so had roofer who is neighbour and he confirmed the leak. Solution is to remove tiles from the back wall, replace membrane/ replace battons with pressure treated ones and put in extra vents. It’s reasonably priced so am going to go with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    So unfortunately these measures alone do not seem to have addressed the issue. I went up this morning after all the showers were said and done.

    Its freezing up there, the temperature just above freezing on most surfaces.

    I cant get in to check this just yet, but will do shortly.

    Disappointed as I thought we had it, but I guess this confirms it is just this area where warm moist air is ingressing...and its above a bathroom!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Tbh your MHRV extract should be clearing the bathroom of that air. That's the point of it.

    Are the doors trimmed 20mm on the bottom to allow fresh supply air into the bathroom. It needs supply to extract properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    I think you've still got a lot of trapped moisture up there from the previous issues - in the glasswool, the joists, rafters and the flooring. It could be a factor and I know that if I was look at any given roof during a period of very cold and wind-less weather, you'll eventually find condensation.

    Plus, I can't work out... why is that glasswool piled against the roof? Is it blocking the vents?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    It seems to be rammed up against a poor slotted in bit of baffling. And then a pipe to the side to add more flow. Somewhat cobbled together solution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    I was wondering what that pipe was. In that case if it's "supplementary ventilation" from the soffit then I'd feel like I'm right with what I said above. It's going to take some weeks to shift that humidity-load out of the attic. Would you agree?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Definitely. Also current weather isn't helping tbh.

    My issue is though that the MHRV in the bathroom should be completely removing the moisture. That's its entire job. So is it working does it have proper flow supply from the supply vents in the other adjacent rooms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    Thanks for the comments, more crawling around in the void gathering data :0

    So I think I've found a bigger culprit, and I'm ashamed I did look to this sooner. The installer had been back and he/I just didnt mention this pipe...no idea why now!

    1) This is just a drain for the watertank overflow, non issue.

    2) I believe this is the route cause: overtaking the other issues I found above. So this is the uninsulated pipe coming from the MHRV system condensation exit. Its a Vent Axia Sentinel, and the manual clearly states that it should be insulated when installed in cold voids. Its about maybe 5m from here back to the unit all uninsulated. When check the temp with IR thermometer, was getting readings of 17 degrees on the pipe and on the joists. Rest of the attic is freezing, so I think ive all the pieces for a fair amount of moisture to form (Humid air, 82% humidity today, little to know breeze and a warm uninsulated heatsource in the cold attic space)

    3) Condensation forming (ahh hhaa)





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    It didn't really, So at its worst, it cleared in about 24 hours. Granted the temp rose and the wind picked up. Its a breezy attic, so while it could likely be improved, i just think based on my post above there is a defect that u would likely need a localized fan to deal with!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I don't think the drain is the problem water will flow out of that and straight out the house at irregular intervals. It's gone in seconds. I wouldn't even bother my arse insulating it.

    See my comments above on extract.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    MHRV system is clearing the shower rooms. I mean there is condensation, but its completely gone within 15 - 30 minutes.

    Issue would be its then expelled back into my freezing cold attic via the pipe above 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    It should be clearing it in under 5 minutes. And even then you should have barely any surface condensation on mirror or windows.

    2 things.

    Your door gaps are non existent or too small.

    You aren't using boost button or have none in the wetrooms.


    If the door gaps are not there the required fresh supply from non extract rooms isn't there so your system isn't working as intended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jusmeig


    Yes it does. So if we take the ensuite there is obviously an extract vent. Just outside in our main room then there is an intake pipe. None of the doors and flush, and they would not be closed for long either way.

    Based on what u said above, if it takes 15 - 20 minutes for the condensation to clear, imagine a bath or something at the same time in the main bathroom, im guessing you would get the temp in that pipe up for a prolonged period of time? This coupled with the humid air in the attic space would lead to condensation forming : this is my take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    It's meant to clear the room quickly. There should be a minimum for Bathrooms I think is 6l/s. But should really be like 8l/s of air change.


    What was the measured air change on the bathroom exhaust when it was commissioned you should have been given a reading sheet.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement