Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Videoed in work

2»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,247 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    The video isn't needed, if someone reports drinking onsite the boss will open an investigation and then follow process



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,600 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    As an investigator, I'd expect you to be open to all possibilities. When someone else's line manager takes an action like this, recording a staff member, I would be very keen to know the back story.

    And yes, it's not the most likely possibility, but it absolutely is a possibility - and one that puts a dramatically different spin on the GDPR issues around processing of the video.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    I think you are reaching.

    As an investigator I would look at the facts that are presented, interview witnesses and obtain the evidence that is available to me. I would not spend my time looking for potential collusion unless there was some evidence of it. Also it would go against all whistleblowing legislation about the protection of whistleblowers from retaliation for reporting unless there is clear malice in it. You'd find yourself in a lot of trouble over that. As an investigator of a whistleblowing claim, you are looking at the incident reported & if there is any relevant history of the individual who the claim is made against. Indeed the person making the claim & who has submitted the video can choose to remain anonymous which means you legally cannot look at anything to do with them even if you know yourself who it is.

    And actually it wouldn't change the GDPR position on the processing of it as it would still be covered under the need to look at it & assess it under the whistleblowing. Yes it's on a managers phone but a phone is a personal device as opposed to something like CCTV which is company owned and operated. And as pointed out above, if the person reported anonymously, you literally can't go off your own ideas who it is to investigate it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,600 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    To be honest, applying 'whistle blowing' this this scenario in the first place was completely overreaching. There was no suggestion from the OP that this was a whistle blowing situation, but because you know a bit about whistle blowing, you've applied your knowledge to a different situation. If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    This wasn't about whistleblowing. It wasn't an employee out to save the world or the company. It was one manager reporting the actions of another employee, someone lower down the line than them, based on video recordings made without the consent of the target.

    The OP also clarified that the phone in question could well have been a company phone, so it absolutely IS company equipment, with the company responsible for setting out policies around how it is used, and how data is processed.

    And even if it was about whistle blowing, the obligation to process data in compliance with GDPR still applies (for the umpteenth time).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭Ted222


    This is the beginning, middle and end of the correct response to the issue raised.


    If disciplinary action is being considered, the strength of testimony of the witness should be considered on its own merits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭F1ngers


    How does a video prove worker was under the influence?

    Unless a blood sample or breathalyzer was taken, how can the videographer/HR prove it?

    Were there other witnesses?

    Is it one persons word against another?

    What proof do they have?

    "I was acting the maggot, won't happen again."



  • Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭RobbieV


    My employer recently put up over 2 dozen CCTV cameras around our workshop, fuel and chemical stores, warehouse and other areas of offices. Was done in November over a weekend.

    Never said anything, nobody asked , nobody told etc

    Came in one day to a rotating camera above my work bench.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Ok re-read your second paragraph there. It was someone reporting the actions of someone else - that is whistleblowing. It's literally the essence. While the companies have to have official channels in place, people can also just report it to anyone & it still has to be treated the same. And also the same could be said for you banging on about GDPR continuously without understanding some of the nuances in it.

    And yes the data has to be processed in line with GDPR but there are specific understandings around that for the cases of whistleblowing. Like not necessarily having to inform the person straight away if it would hinder an investigation. And you were the one with all the conjecture about "saving the company" or the managers intentions etc. None of that actually matters.

    Company phone or not it is not owned & operated by the company. It's operated by an individual. It doesn't matter their level or not, it's the operator. For someone who's so pedantic on GDPR you should understand those terms. Also you do get in to the realms of was it the company phone or not as some people have 2 so how could they know which was used to make the recording. See I can reach too.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭blackbox


    Was it already covered in your contract of employment?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,600 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Your employer is almost certainly breaking data protection law. If you're concerned, you can report them to the DPC now, or you can wait until they try to use the CCTV in their dealings with staff and report them then.

    If you're in a union, it would certainly be worthwhile getting the union involved. If you're not in a union, this would be a good time to consider organising.

    Sorry, but when did a simple management communication become 'whistle blowing'? Is every communication relating to any employee error now whistle blowing? If I email one of my team saying "I didn't like the way you did X, please do Y the next time" am I whistle blowing?

    There are now 'understandings' in relation to GDPR compliance. There are specific legal obligations, and when companies screw up on these, it costs them big money - tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions or billions.

    The company phone is operated by the individual, as part of their employment - same as any company owned equipment - same as CCTV or factory equipment or anything else. You seem to be spinning here to try to distance yourself from GDPR obligations, but employers are responsible for how company equipment is used. It's up to the employer to have appropriate policies and controls in place.

    And if it was a personal phone, companies have obligations to have appropriate procedures in place also about how personal phones are used in the workplace.

    Yes, you can certainly reach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Because if the video is shared indicating a practice (e.g. intoxication) that contravenes company policy & poses a danger to others, it can be classified as whistle-blowing. It's not giving out to someone for not doing their job correctly. Obviously. There's a massive difference.

    I know about all the fines etc around GDPR and I'm not trying to say that the company doesn't have an obligation around them but likewise, the nature of the information involved here indicates a specific type of processing under GDPR which is allowed due to the nature of the information and to what it relates. It's literally covered by both the GDPR and Whistleblowing legislation as to how to correctly process this so as to recognise the individual who was recorded rights under GDPR but also the companies in regards safe practices etc.

    https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/individuals/know-your-rights/restriction-individual-rights-certain-circumstances First line - it's not an absolute right so on the balance of information processed here (video of someone presenting as intoxicated), the balance would indicate that the video could be processed in the investigation of the incident. Now it can't be used solely for a gross misconduct, because as someone else pointed out, you can't actually fully determine if someone is intoxicated just by a video. But it would be allowed to be processed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,600 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That's a big leap there, from someone being under the influence (as the OP stated) to posing a danger to others. We've had nothing from the OP to suggest there was a danger to others.

    And anyway, how do you define 'danger'? Is an employee error that will result in reduced profits a danger to others? Is an employee error that causes slight reputational damage a danger to others?

    The specific type of processing may well be allowed, but it STILL needs to be covered in the privacy policy of the organisation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    It depends on the workplace of course but somebody being under the influence in a warehouse could be a massive danger. It's why you're not allowed to be under the influence. Yes if it's an office scenario, less likely but there are still things that can happen. And danger I do mean physical danger to themselves or another as the employer has obligations to the health & safety of all individuals. Including the one who is under the influence. If they fall & bang their head off a desk for example. Or bump into someone causing them to fall or spill a hot drink on themselves. I'm not saying that we should all be wrapped in cotton wool here but recognise that people under the influence can often be a danger to themselves & others, unintentionally, & there's a reason you're not allowed in the workplace in that state.

    Reputational damage is a real thing but in cases like this (well ones where I've been involved) that has not really registered as a concern at all in regards the case. It's more an after the fact thing of how the company can deal with any potential reputational damage once the issue itself has been resolved.

    I never said it didn't have to be covered in the policy but it doesn't have to be called out specifically. If you have a whistleblowing policy in work, then it will likely include a line saying that information will be processed in line with legislation (to save them changing it every time something changes). And considering that having a whistleblowing policy is now law across the EU, it would be hard for the OP to claim something under GDPR against the investigation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,600 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Honestly, you're reaching so far here you're about to topple over.

    There is absolutely nothing in the OP about danger. Yes, that is a possibility in certain conditions in certain workplaces, but it's a fair old stretch to say there's danger here so this is a whistleblowing scenario.

    There is absolutely nothing in the OP about whistleblowing. I'd bet a fiver if you asked the person who did the video recording if they were whistleblowing, they would look back at you with a confused stare. There's nothing to suggest that this is a whistleblowing scenario.

    You really don't seem to understand how GDPR policies work. Of course this personal data category has to be called out specifically. That's the whole purpose of these policies. If it's not called out specifically in the policies, then the data is not being processed in compliance with GDPR, which is a requirement for whistleblowing, according to the link you posted yourself.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement