Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

30,000 innocent Palestinians now, is it? So, zero Hamas fighters according to Hamas' official figures then? Oh wait.

But concerning the actually innocent Palestinians, who are nowhere near 30,000, then yes of course they matter. Just like the civilians killed in Dresden or Hiroshima mattered. But not all deaths of civilians in a war are murder. And the fact that Hamas can't manage to kill more Israelis despite their best efforts, while the Israelis could obviously kill far more but are actually trying not to despite Hamas' best efforts, does not make them the same.

Hamas targets Jews purely because of their ethnicity. Jews are just trying to survive, despite a tradition of literally centuries of attacks on them, which have clearly not stopped just because they now have a country.

1) Name any? Are you saying the Irish government was complicit in allowing the IRA to operate at will in the way Hezbollah does? Because they definitely were not.

2) I mentioned Kingsmill (Bessbrook) myself previously as an atrocity which was exceptional, but even then no babies were murdered, which was my original point - and also Kingsmill was not supported by ordinary people, hence the tactic never became commonplace. Darkley was the INLA, not the IRA. They were always more extreme, and had a tiny support base. Which, again, was my point. Nationalists in Northern Ireland - much less the republic - would not have supported anything close to the sort of horrors that Hamas carry out being committed in their name. That's why the hypothesis of "But what if Ireland started bombing England and shooting hundreds of concert-goers at Glastonbury" is positively laughable.

(As for age, I'm quite possibly older than you: I remember (just about) the soldiers arriving in the town where I grew up. And I also remember how people in the south, when we went on holiday there, were above all terrified that we might somehow be contagious. The last thing they wanted to hear was any talk of Northern Ireland. It's hilarious how, now that there is no longer any risk of the troubles affecting them, they're suddenly all gung ho for Sinn Fein and, supposedly, the nationalist cause. As though Sinn Fein got us civil rights. They didn't. Nor peace, except to the extent that they were among those causing the trouble in the first place.)

So, you're good to continually use every justification possible for murdered civilians?

So just how many of those are innocent?You stated "nowhere near 30,000". Seeing as you appear to have insider information, just how many are innocent then?

And how many of those were "not murdered" but killed.

And if they were not murdered, what do you call it? Collateral damage? An unfortunate mistake? Tragic but necessary?

And the Israelis "could obviously kill a lot more but are trying not to". So exactly how did the sniper "try not to" kill a women waving a white flag?

I don't think anyone said there were NO cross border incidents - what does that even mean? When an IRA man slipped across the border where (in theory) he couldn't be followed, and the army followed him - as happened many times - claiming to have read the map wrong, well clearly that's "a cross border incident".

But that in itself illustrates my point rather nicely: nobody ever believed that the British Army were that sh1t at map reading that they really crossed the border accidentally. Yet the Irish government supinely pretended to think they might have done, and certainly never made a fuss about it. Imagine Lebanon covering the Israelis in that way when they want to get Hamas people in Lebanon?

Or what's the truth behind an IDF soldier about to throw a stun grenade at medics who stops when realising he's caught on camera?

But here's the thing - whilst I have not viewed any of the Hamas videos of 7th Oct, I have no problem taking the BBC's word for it.

When someone posts an IDF atrocity video or a defenceless Palestinian being shot or another, either wounded or dead, being run over by the IDF, all of a sudden there's another "truth" behind it and what you're seeing is not the real truth.

But why do you care about the numbers of innocents they provide? The number of innocent deaths hasn't fazed you from the start so why start worrying about how high the number is?

It's a free world - feel free to not continue discussing, making things up and not answering my questions. I don't particular care what you do.

But if you do continue prepare to be challenged.

1991

My suggestions for after this war:

A. No army or armed police in Gaza, just unarmed police. Firearms illegal.

B. Any Gazan who wishes to leave Gaza afterwards (save for perpetrators of 7th Oct etc) should be free to do so for a country of his/her choice, preferably Quatar or Iran or one of the arab states (wealthy/shared culture etc). Those who wish to stay should stay. I really think the refugee status needs to end especially if given a genuine choice to leave. It is far too easy for Saudi A etc to criticise from the sidelines but refuse to take anyone on the basis that that would be ethnic cleansing. If no one wants to leave fair enough but nowhere else in the world AFAIK does refugee status pass down through generations.

C. A brand new party to be elected which has in its constitution an acceptance of Israel’s right to exist and an undertaking not to attack it and a condemnation of violence.

D. Insert obligations inc. funding rebuilding etc for Israel, arab states, USA, Europe, South A etc here. In turn Gaza leaders must be held accountable for aid funds given the sums Hamas appear to have used up for tunnels and splurging abroad.

E. No settlements in Gaza.

F. No tunnels in Gaza.

G. A buffer zone of x km (farming allowed etc) reducing over a period of years on the proviso that there are no attacks from Gaza.

H. Full access and possibly a presence for independent international monitors that can be trusted by both sides.

Gaza has such potential but without Gaza pursuing peace Israel has to take necessary steps to protect itself. If Gaza is peaceful then Israel needs to reciprocate by relaxing such measures.

I dismay at the lack of realistic proposals coming forward from anywhere for afterwards at least that I have seen. No doubt mine aren’t great for whatever reason but I would be interested in what others think. It may be that other posters have more realistic ideas and I should be glad to hear them.

Yeah

It's everyone else's fault that innocent men, women and children are getting killed.

"No settlements in Gaza"

And the illegal settlements in West Bank?

Apologies - I want clear. I wasn't criticising you - just adding to the list. The bit at the end was a general comment to the previous poster about the "truth behind videos"

Whilst I'm here, your list is a good start. You've thought about it.

You can't have a solution without including the west bank though, if a deal was made tomorrow with just Gaza/Israel there would be nothing stopping Israel continued illegal expansion into West bank.

I think it's easy enough to understand really (& no I am not condoning anybody laughing at others injured or dying or anything like that)

The Jewish people have suffered all their existence. They have been hounded, expelled and murdered in their millions, just because they are Jewish. When they eventually got something (Israel) they were immediately attacked by their neighbours. All Jewish people in neighbouring North Africa and the middle east were expelled from their homes and went as refugees to Israel.

It has made them a paranoid, defensive people. They won't show weakness and will not care what others think of them because that's the way they have had to be. Israel will defend themselves and their country to the last and no I don't believe they have any empathy for other nationalities.

It's definitely understandable.

Wouldn't matter - we're not discussing Northern Ireland, we're discussing whether the IRA on the border were comparable to the situation of Hezbollah in Lebanon. My example was the sort of "cross border incident" that actually happened several times, rather than someone's fond imaginings that the Irish Army valiantly fought the British occupiers in Northern Ireland side by side with the IRA. Or at least that the Irish government was in any way complicit with them. The Irish government had far more sympathy for the British government than for the IRA.

Which shows that there was no "cross border activity" of the sort that occurs between Lebanon and Israel.