Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Gusser09 · 12-01-2024 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605007#Comment_121605007

This.

8.5% is a great figure. Its the schedule of the offer which is the stumbling block. It needs to be over 2 yrs and the majority implemented now.

bren2001 · 12-01-2024 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604755#Comment_121604755

You aint getting 7% on Day 1 with 3% over the remainder. I know people disagree with spreading out the increments but being realistic, it simply isn't going to happen. I could see 3% in March, 3% in October, 2% in March, 2% in October. It seems a realistic way to get to 10%.

I think its relatively clear that the civil service grades need a recheck, teachers, nurses, and Im sure a few other areas as recruitment and retention is nigh on impossible. They should always be handled outside the Public Pay Talks imo.

Norrie Rugger Head · 12-01-2024 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121603964#Comment_121603964

Does Francis just throw out potential hot points and hope that they stick, and the moment they are challenged just ignore that and move to another "topic"?

Peter Flynt · 12-01-2024 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605076#Comment_121605076

"But being realistic .... it simply isn't going to happen" . . . . . Why isn't it realistic?

In the private sector who goes into their boss and arranges a 0.875% increase (basically a pay cut) for 2024? Any pay rise is paid in full usually at the start of a set period like a calendar year.

Do the government pay social welfare increases beginning from next October? No, they pay them and in full at the beginning of January.

They way public sector workers in Ireland are treated is an absolute disgrace.

CramCycle · 12-01-2024 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605076#Comment_121605076

5% and 5%, January and January would be very tolerable as its an immediate difference that most will notice in their take home pay. Its the dribs and drabs give no feeling of improvement, the only exception being at the bottom of the pay levels (this needs to be way more than a paltry €750 minimum, I'd have said €1500). Even then, they are criminally underpaid. The leaking it out slowly means the impact is gone as by the time the next 1.5% comes up, we have had inflation at double that for 6 months, so you only get adjusted to the amount you have lost in regards buying power. Doing it at the start gives a psycological good will buy in, it is noticeable and it means that after the 6 months good feel buzz is gone, workers remember it anc can look forward to it again in 6 months.

bren2001 · 12-01-2024 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605181#Comment_121605181

It isn't realistic based on the last umpteen pay deals. When was the last one where 70% of it was given on Day 1?

In relation to your extremely ridiculous example, nobody would arrange a 0.875% increase, you would arrange an X% increase and then subtract inflation in your head. It would never be presented that way.

bren2001 · 12-01-2024 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605194#Comment_121605194

Spreading it out over the duration of the deal was well covered earlier in the thread and I don't want to clog up the thread again giving the same view I've given ad naseum. I see the benefits of spreading it out like that, others disagree. The purpose of the pay deal isn't to give a "good feel buzz", its to adjust pay scales so that people are fairly compensated as the economic environment shifts.

In relation to giving workers a minimum of €1500, I'd vote against that deal straight away. If the minimum was €1500 or 1.5% and €750 is equivalent to a 2% rise for a CO (or any other role). Why in Gods name does one worker get a 4% rise and I get a 1.5% rise. The CO payscale or other payscales should be adjusted outside of this agreement. They need to be generally revised. Giving every single worker a blanket €1500 rise at the minimum is both unfair and madness.

Peter Flynt · 12-01-2024 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605208#Comment_121605208

In my extremely ridiculous example............You mean the example that is being provided for 2024 to public servants?

Forget umpteen pay deals in the past - When the RMT union in the UK achieved a pay rise recently it was guaranteed to them in FULL and not this piecemeal crap that the Irish carry on with.

:Keith: · 12-01-2024 10:51am

Hadn't seen this in the thread, but apologies if I just over looked it. IT reporting this morning that talks are resuming next week and that the Union's proposal was 12.5% across 2024-2026 structured as 2% x 3 this year, 5% next year, and remainder in 2026.

CramCycle · 12-01-2024 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605247#Comment_121605247

We are allowed give different opinions, and I have read your descriptions. I just disagree with them, spread out over time is fine if you can take the wait. The feel good factor was more that it would be more acceptable, I imagine, to alot of workers who have a tangible, I can see that in my pay check, so it is alot more acceptable. The small increases, from many over coffee , they simply don't notice them. Yes it makes a difference, but many workers don't and won't be as happy about it. It is also spread out in a way that even if inflation lowers, by the time it comes in, it won't even hold most workers at the decreased buying power.

If the % was high enough, I would vote for it no matter what way it came in over the next year or two but if its at the lower end of what I find acceptable, i would epect at least 50% of it to be front loaded.

As for the €1500 or 1.5%, this is disingenuous because it is only 1.5% at that point in time and also I am including that in my view of 5% per annum for two years. And I should have been more clear, I didn't mean to imply €1500 each time, I meant per annum. At 5% change it would only be a minor increase over the 5% per annum. My understanding from the last agreement wasn't €750 each time but at specific increases. Obviously there would be more minutiae required but in reality, it would only bring up the bottom 3 points on the CO scale, and only by a max of €100 more than if they just got the 5%.

The increase would only apply to those under 30k, and its a sliding scale to the 5% as you get closer to 30k, back of an envelope calculations for a CO it would be 5.5% instead of 5% at the starting point of the scale. It would however make a huge differences to those on the services end of the payscale.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-01-2024 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604245#Comment_121604245

True that but it's yet another thing you'll never see mentioned in the media.

There was an article in the IT yesterday which implied that pre-95 public servants got both SW OAP and 50% of final salary! It was silently corrected later. Must check which version made it into print...

BTW everyone pays tax at the marginal rate. It's the tax rate levied on the last euro you earn and depends on the individual. Can be higher rate, lower rate... or zero.

AndrewJRenko · 12-01-2024 11:26am

Just caught up with yesterday's Claire Byrne piece

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22341767/

Do Claire and Pat Leahy not actually understand how inflation works, or are they deliberately spreading misinformation?

They're talking about how 'reduced inflation' will solve the problem for government.

Reduced inflation is still inflation, not deflation - prices are STILL rising.

And it does nothing to deal with the legacy 'debt' arising from the last couple of years of horrendous inflation.

bren2001 · 12-01-2024 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605410#Comment_121605410

At no point did I say you can’t give a different opinion. That’s the purpose of a forum. I certainly give mine.

Your clarification on the €1500 makes more sense. I don’t agree with it but there ye go.

People don’t know the pay increases but I’ll notice it in my pension. You don’t notice inflation on any given day, it builds. Pay adjustments should too in my opinion. There are other reasons too. I don’t want to clog a thread with my opinions (people are aware of them already).

Norrie Rugger Head · 12-01-2024 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605358#Comment_121605358

A three year deal? They can feck right off if they think that 12% split over 3 bloody years is good enough!

Norrie Rugger Head · 12-01-2024 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605528#Comment_121605528

Claire doesn't care about inflation. She's wealthy, inflation can actually make her money!

Peter Flynt · 12-01-2024 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605528#Comment_121605528

"Reduced inflation" is inflation on top of the inflation that was reaching double digit inflation in the past year or so. Liars and charlatans are working in RTE on behalf of the government - same as ever.

Norrie Rugger Head · 12-01-2024 11:42am

This constant pension diversion is tiring too.

Does anyone have the calculator handy and want to put in what the average PS salary earns (~€47k?) as a pension, at the end of their full service years?

It's in and around the 25k mark, in total, yeah?

Peter Flynt · 12-01-2024 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605577#Comment_121605577

How about a 25 year deal with a 50% pay rise?

This is the sort of crap we have to put up with . . . . deals over long periods of time with what appear to be large percentage increases when they are nothing of the sort. Most of the Irish public have poor mathematical ability or know how and so just swallow the "50%" figure given by the media and go "Wow. . . .that's a great increase".

It's a complete con and fraud by FF/FG.

CramCycle · 12-01-2024 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605554#Comment_121605554

I don't disagree with you and if thats how it worked, that we were tied to inflation rates in some way, so that it wasn't after the horse has bolted. What you have described is already way behind inflation, if your at a high pay rate, you won't like it but you will survive (I know I will so it doesn't affect me as much, I am just less happy with it but its fine), if you are at the lower end of the payscale (services for example), then it makes staying in the job a foolish endeavour and eventually these people, unless institutionalised which many are, will head off to their local supermarket where they will earn more over time.

You could easily have a % linked to inflationary rates, where to stave off massive inflation, above 4% they only increase at 0.X% a year, with various essential services (and I mean front line staff, admin staff are not front line despite what the HSE staff will tell you). Then linked directly to inflation below 4%. There will occasionally be times where they need to meet up because of extrordinary changes in sopecific areas but that would be it.

Pulling figures out of my ass I'll admit but as an immediate cost to the government, as the situation that we have found ourselves in, I do think the 5% needs to be at the start and then, as part of the agreement, start a permanent solution over the next 2 years. The unions of course, won't do this as it will feel like a Turkey voting for Christmas but it would at least be sensible IMO.

:Keith: · 12-01-2024 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605577#Comment_121605577

Sorry, should have been clearer - seemed to have been 2.5 years with 2026 increase falling due on 1 January.

Link:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/2024/01/12/unions-to-seek-significant-improvement-on-government-pay-offer-when-talks-resume-next-week/

Norrie Rugger Head · 12-01-2024 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605610#Comment_121605610

Our own members will absolutely lap it up

bobbysands81 · 12-01-2024 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605528#Comment_121605528

They know well what they’re at.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-01-2024 11:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604259#Comment_121604259

On the contrary, a targeted work to rule would bring certain services to their knees with huge public and political impact

Hotblack Desiato · 12-01-2024 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605011#Comment_121605011

Once upon a time TDs pay was linked to HEOs, it's now linked to POs...

So technically they cannot vote themselves a pay rise. They can just move their comparator grade up a notch though.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-01-2024 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605061#Comment_121605061

8.5% over two years is a terrible figure.

Even IF applied immediately (Jan 1) it'd barely get us back to where we were in 2021. We'd then have literally nothing for the remaining 2 or 2.5 years.

Need at least 7% up front and a reasonable amount over the remaining period to have at least some chance of not having earnings significantly eroded again.

Francis McM · 12-01-2024 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605604#Comment_121605604

Public servise pensions? Well according to the Irish Times, " Public-sector pensions worth millions, new figures show"

Quote: Calculations by the Association of Pension Trustees of Ireland (APTI) show private-sector workers and their employers would have to spend millions of euro to earn the same retirement benefits.

It states: A Garda retiring at 60 with a €102,000 lump sum and €34,000 pension would have their pot valued at €1.8 million, including the spouse’s benefit. An ordinary public servant, retiring with a €60,000 lump sum and €20,000 pension has benefits worth €850,000 in private-sector terms.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/public-sector-pensions-worth-millions-new-figures-show-1.3143604

I would say the government would not mind increasing pay by 15 or 20% even if they could just just reduce the public service pension timebomb by a noticeable amount, to realistic levels.

Gusser09 · 12-01-2024 12:27pm

We'll see.

A ballot for striking is essentially a vote for or against the deal. I don't think there is an appetite for one day strike actions and I don't think they will have much of an impact apart from saving the govt. money.

I think the govt. are playing this a lot cuter than the unions. If members do vote to strike the govt. will still be able to rescue the situation by improving the offer. If members reject industrial action then the govt. will come back to the unions and tell them to take it or leave it.

Interesting times ahead for sure.