Kilkenny GAA Thread

As regards to facilities KK is disgraceful. The reason I heard that the Walsh cup wasn’t played in SETU Carlow the other night was because there was Kilkenny team’s training there. Can you credit it that our representatives for the senior club all Ireland have to train in a different county, no wonder we are not winning all irelands.

I thought O'Loughlins installed floodlights recently.

That crop of Limerick underage players were very good but no better than Waterford's of the same period and were beaten by a less than stellar Kilkenny minor team in 2014. Most of those lads went to ASR, so also tasted a series of schools losses to Kierans.

What happened them after 18/19 years old, is the vital difference, they entered into a professional coaching set up that is simply on a different planet to other counties.

Would Sean Finn or Flanagan or Hegarty or Nash or either of the Morriseys have become the same brilliant senior players in KK, Galway, Tipp or Cork? No chance. How about David Reidy and Graeme Mulcahy, average players till 6 years ago (Reidy was playing with Kildare back then), neither would have made the Kiilkenny team in 2017/2018, then in the space of two years they are transformed in to top class inter county players. There is always room for the odd rough diamond to be polished, but 7,8 9 or them on the same team?

Putting Limerick's dominance down to simply "a golden crop that will fizzle out" is to ignore other huge factors at play. Limerick havent built a team, they have built a system that can produce outstanding senior players through adavanced coaching backed by finanical resources that we have never seen the like of.

I think you've clearly laid out what's going on in Limerick. Croke Park need to acknowledge it and decide if that's the way forward for all. It may not be possible but they need to do something about the runaway train.

On throwing the ball - every team may be doing it at this stage but certainly not to the same extent as some. Since there's nothing being done to eradicate it, it's time for us to accept it, perfect it and use it throughout the league. Come the championship it'll be ignored in the same way as last year, so meanwhile let's get on with it.

Ah they had more players coming through than Waterford at that time, Waterford only really had 1 outstanding team who won minor in 13 then u21 in 16 some of those Waterford players didn't translate to Senior either Shane Bennett has been coming and going from the panel, Tom Devine stepped away from intercounty at 23 to persue his career in medicine, Limerick got 2 u21 All Ireland's in convincing fashion, funnily that crop and the Clare team that won 3 u21s 2012-14 didn't win a single minor All Ireland between them, more inconsistency at that age group, Limerick minors in 2014 were seen as a generational team and ye shocked them in the final if my memory serves me right, similar to last year when Galway were certs to win u17 and Clare shocked them in the final. Wouldn't be getting bogged down in the schools records, if we were ye would be cleaning up based on Kierans record.

I agree Limerick are well resourced and its a big help but it certainly isn't the only factor at play, thing about a golden crop is you don't realise at 17, 18, 19 how good they are, you know there some excellent players but wouldn't realise there a crop to bring unprecedented success, when Tommy, JJ, Richie Power etc. were coming through you probably knew they were good players but could never predict they'd be lads who would backbone 8 wins in 10 years. If Limerick have built a system like you said please explain why Cathal O'Neill is the only player to break in their core 20 or so players since 2019, their team has changed very little since 2018, when ye were on top 1 or 2 were introduced every year.

I don’t need to explain why only one 2019 minor has so far fully broken into the Lim senior team; I saw with my own eyes two nights ago how lads who were average enough minors are now serious hurlers with savage conditioning.

Will that ensure Limerick continue to win boatloads of senior All Irelands? I don’t know, all I do know is that what is going on in terms developing serious senior intercounty players in Limerick is unreal and unprecedented.

And writing it off as "ah sure, we just have a great crop of lads, we will be back down in the pack again soon enough" is glib nonsense. As silly as buying Dubs saying the same. I have heard Dublin lads insincerely spouting that stuff for nearly a decade.

The 2014 minor Lim minor team were v good but weren't a "generational team", they needed two games to get past Waterford in Munster final and were only small favourites going into AI final, Kilkenny fancied their chances (and had beaten Waterford in semi).

As seniors, they became “generational” while Waterford who went toe to toe with them in the same age bracket for nearly 3 years, and Kilkenny 2014/2015 (robbed of the 2015 minor AI) players didn’t. Why?

Because those Waterford and Kilkenny players went into a conventional county senior set up and Limerick (post 2016) went in to an advanced and well-funded programme and became “generational players”

As a Kilkenny man, am I jealous of that? Damn right I am.

But the bigger picture here in an amateur sport is the unevenness of it.

How long can the GAA allow monstrous disparities in team budgets continue before it all becomes a lobsided bore (football has already got there, the Leinster championship for years now an uncompetitive joke).

The NFL (surely no one’s idea of Corinthians) have team salary caps that are strictly enforced and also have “the draft” to allow the weakest teams first shot at best young players. That isn’t out of any spirit of sporting goodwill. It is smart, it is to ensure the NFL isn’t perpetually dominated by 2/3 huge, big city franchises with billions more to spend than the likes of Cincinnati, Green Bay or Kansas City. Keeping the league competitive is what makes it so popular, people would tune out and the full stadiums in Kansas and Green Bay would empty if the fans knew there was no prospect of winning a Super Bowl.

So we have one of the greediest, capitalistic sporting leagues in the world smart enough to understand vast gaps in funding between teams competing in the same competition is stupid in terms of long term popularity of its sport, but a strictly amateur one like the GAA apparently not giving a toss.

Want to spend 6 million training you senior team and have the money to do it? No problem.

The handpass isn't going to change this year. Throwing is a blight absolutely but Limerick don't care. They play the rules as they are enforced not the rules as they are written. And that is professionalism in itself. Mosley has it said already.. a professional set up ,coached brilliantly, excellent attitude of players and fellas that love to get better ,lift more weight, get faster. Kiely is the oil in that machine. He's a phenomenal manager. No ego..none. And plenty of cash . Limerick can get caught for sure this year...hard to see it though. But its not a factory assembly line.. Rugby ect prevents the volume of players allowing total domination over a period.. If the same set up was in Cork with Kinnerk, JP and Kiely then it would all over...Turn the lights off because no one would beat them for decades...with the Volume of players and talent.

Limerick are just better than everyone else at the moment. Other counties have to get up their level.yes they have huge financial resources but no matter what kind of money they have it wont make the ball go over the bar.Some of the points they got in the 2nd half against us were incredible. They just have bigger,better and smarter hurlers than everyone else. Yes they throw the ball but so does cork,waterford,kilkenny and every other team.

I do agree that the current facilities we have at the moment is scandalous but not surprising given how mean the county board are.Theres talks and plans of development but thats years away.

Best of luck to the two teams and o loughlins next weekend. The junior final should be a good match. Thomastown are unbackable favorites but cork teams at this level are always good but Thomastown are a serious team. The senior next weekend should be a cracker. St thomas will be favorites but if o loughlins are in it with a few mins to go they'll fancy their chances. They will need to take their goal chances and keep the free count down at the opposite side but this is a great opportunity to win a club all ireland.Luke hogan is a great target man and Heary has being a revelation in up front and has being very consistent.

Lyng will be happy to get the year going. Carlows decision making and execution was desperate. They must of had about 18 wides but some of their hurling was shocking. We got sloppy ourselves but nothing to be read into this game. This is an audition for players before the league so hopefully he will keep this squad for the wexford match.

Good luck to the 2 Kilkenny teams today. Looking forward to watching the 2 games as both are very enjoyable to watch.

This is going to go a bit all over the place but here it goes. I was going to bring up the NFL myself and while I believe most of the comments above are true and fair in large part it's the nuance that makes the difference. Limerick do have a generational team and they will not last forever. Will they drop off a cliff when those lads leave, likely not, will they be as dominant, no way will they. Without their best players they would have lost in Munster last year and to Kilkenny in the 22 AI. Their out in front and relatively comfortable at the minute but if Quaid, Hannon and Lynch for instance retired they don't have the same quality to replace them. For me they are the 3 most important players to Limericks game plan without them they are a different prospect. Great and all as we were in 2010 we couldn't do it without Henry and more importantly I always felt Brian Hogan, he was a huge loss that day. Quaid controls the game massively with his puckouts and his understudies are not close to his level, if we look at their league chances so far. Hannon is the glue in that defence and they can move lads around to paper over that crack but he's still a huge loss when not playing and Lynch equally on the attacking end of the field.

Something glossed over a lot is that hurling in Limerick is pulling from a relatively small base of players and clubs and any change to that will take time. This success will help increase the sports popularity in the county and that's a great thing. The clubs in Limerick city have been very weak for decades. Limerick will continue to be competitive and will likely win all Irelands more regularly than before but they won't be the dominant force they currently are, they just don't have the playing population to sustain it at the minute. Rugby and soccer are huge in Limerick too.

In fairness JP told Limerick Co Board he'd support them if the put the right structures in place. In 2011 they went off and got UL to do a report on what they needed to do. UL looked at the best youth and academy set ups in various sports around the world and tailored it to GAA. They presented it to JP and he gave them the green light and funding to make it a reality. Lynch, Hayes, Hegarty, Gillane, etc were the first crop through that set up and got to the minor final in 2014.... They have been good since but not dominant at underage. Their young players are really well conditioned and seem to be able to make an impact at a younger age because of this but conditioning doesn't make you a better hurler, it just helps to be able to compete for the ball or space so you can use your skills easier than if your not conditioned properly.

One of the major advantages I think the Limerick panel might have if the rumours I've heard are correct, is in resting. The major difference between a professional athlete and an amature one is the level of rest they have in between sessions. From my understanding the rest is vital and every bit as important to conditioning as lifting the weight or doing the sprints etc. I have no idea if true or not but I've heard a good few of the Limerick players are essentially subsidised so they don't have to work and can take the rest needed. Probably BS but I trust the person who told me. It's not them all but there are certain lads who've been given this opportunity to essentially be professional athletes in all but name. I know plenty of the Limerick lads have jobs and are students but if you have 7-8 lads able to get the rest they need that's half a starting team at a professional level of fitness. Dublin apparently have done similar in the football, fair dues to them they have the resources to be able to do it. Richie Hogan tried it, as has Lee Chin but these were 1 player on a team, not a decent proportion of a team.

The money question is not about Limerick or Dublin too me but to try and create an equal playing field for teams. So you have more competitive games and championships. The biggest issue is the ould brown envelopes under the table or getting outside sponsors to pay managers or backroom teams. To do it the counties have to open up their books and they have to acknowledge managers and backroom teams are getting paid and it all has to be out in the open. The detail of who gets what doesn't have to be published but the finances of those involved would have to be open to the GAA auditors for scrutiny. If Joe Bloggs is managing a team at intercounty level he would have to be prepared to have his and family accounts checked by the auditors to make sure he wasn't getting more than the official amount. There would be large fines, deduction of points, bans of months or years for those caught flouting the rules. This is the only way I think you could even think about setting up a money capping system for intercounty teams. For instance your allowed to spend €300,000 on an intercounty team and that's it. A lot of these travelling managers and trainers would have to take serious cuts or go for other rolls. I think you should be able to train a team for the amount they set it at and all County Boards should be able to raise whatever the figure is. If like Kilkenny and most northern teams you don't play one of the main GAA sports seriously you can't divert the unspent money from Kilkenny's football team to go towards the hurling team. The amount cannot be exceeded for a team in that sport, same goes for underage teams. It would require a fair bit of policing and the GAA would have to crack down hard on teams and make sure they wouldn't loose appeals in courts. Counties and teams would have to probably sign up to a new charter/set of rules etc.

JP is doing right by his own and fair dues to him and he's been very generous to every club in the country recently again too. Many counties want a JP but they don't grow on trees and their not in every county. The GAA shouldn't allow itself to be destroyed by money and inequality. The GAA need to grasp the nettle and deal with the issue fairly across the board. In 2020 the GAA asked teams to reduce spending and yet last year Munster teams spent over €10m combined and Galway spent over €2m (on all teams), I'm sure we spent a €1m+ as well. As said before asking teams to spend less when they see successful teams spending their hind legs off is just not going to work. The money may not be the reason their winning but other teams sure think it is, so they mimic it and the thing just gets crazier and crazier. In the NFL the salary cap is increased pretty much annually but all teams vote on it, If any spending cap brought in by the GAA wasn't sufficient the counties could vote to increase it. I'm sure certain teams and counties would be pushing for an increase straight away but the majority would rule here and if the majority were smart they would vote to keep the spending cap at a level attainable by all counties not just the well heeled. I would hope that the excess money now spent on intercounty teams could be put into smaller clubs and communities in every county, than just being spent on the few at the top. Obviously some money will go to other sports and causes but does the GAA community need the level of funding being spent on intercounty teams? Do the players deserve top class facilities, medical care, equipment and advice. Sure they do but can it be done for less than it currently is costing I think it can. Limerick have a bigger video analysis and stat team than either Munster, Leinster or Ireland Rugby and their a professional sport. Do Limerick need that level of analysis? Would they still be winning without it or with a smaller stat/analysis team? I think they would but the problem is other teams see Limericks stat team is say 6 lads and they can't afford that but the go for 3 or 4 when 1 or 2 might do the job. It's just an example of where the keeping up with the Jones' can lead teams budgets getting bigger and bigger. I'm sure the players are often going to the management and saying you should see the analysis the Limerick lads get on a Sunday night Monday morning etc. The management feel this is what the player feel they need. Call to the county board we need more and faster stats and analysis. Having done analysis for my club for 8 years I would say it's relatively limited the impact it can actually have on a game once it takes on that life of it's own.

The other thing that Limerick have that the other teams don't at the minute is Kinnerk. I don't like the way he has trained his players to play the game but it is hugely effective and I admire that. If the GAA/Refs don't/won't clamp down on the things like throwing that's not Limericks fault they are just getting the most out of their team pushing it to the edge and rightly so. That's how you become a serial winner. Kinnerk is a hugely smart guy and can see whats happening and he knows the strengths of his team to be able to exploit other teams weaknesses. He can see it in real time and during Covid made the changes at the water break and now at half time. Cody was great if we drew a game or the next time we played the opposition but for me his biggest weakness was spotting what was going wrong and knowing how and when to change it. Give Cody a week and he'd destroy you. Give Kinnerk 15 mins and he'll do the same. He has also trained good players to be very good players. If you look at the Limerick forwards and where they were at U20 and where they are now they have advanced hugely. Gillane always had lots of talent to be a top class intercounty forward, the rest had a chance of being good but for me they are some of the best forwards in the country outside of the likes of Tony Kelly, TJ, Whelan etc. For me that is down to Kinnerks coaching. It's also maybe who their underage isn't as successful.

Best of luck to Tullogher and Thomastown💪

Much the better team but worth remembering this is the winners of the 3rd grade in Kilkenny v the winners of the 5th in Cork

Not sure why it is done this way but certainly is no help to clubs once they come out of Cork.

Cork do it that way because they have more GAA clubs than Connacht. They have to have all these grades.

A brilliant night for KK hurling long may it continue.